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	<title>Comments on: Basic logic &#8212; quantifiers</title>
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	<description>Mathematics related discussions</description>
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		<title>By: johnathan</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2011/09/30/basic-logic-quantifiers/#comment-29095</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[johnathan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Oct 2012 16:30:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=3246#comment-29095</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Is the wrong definition of convergence you gave useful in mathematics? I am trying to make sense of the wrong definition. Is it the &#039;for all e&#039; where the meaning jumps out? Because e&gt;0 and you want the other thing to be less than e, it must be 0 so we conclude that the nth term onwards is a?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is the wrong definition of convergence you gave useful in mathematics? I am trying to make sense of the wrong definition. Is it the &#8216;for all e&#8217; where the meaning jumps out? Because e&gt;0 and you want the other thing to be less than e, it must be 0 so we conclude that the nth term onwards is a?</p>
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		<title>By: gowers</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2011/09/30/basic-logic-quantifiers/#comment-29087</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[gowers]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Oct 2012 09:14:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=3246#comment-29087</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There isn&#039;t a difference (or at least, there isn&#039;t in the kind of classical logic that is used for undergraduate mathematics courses and by most working mathematicians).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There isn&#8217;t a difference (or at least, there isn&#8217;t in the kind of classical logic that is used for undergraduate mathematics courses and by most working mathematicians).</p>
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		<title>By: johnathan</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2011/09/30/basic-logic-quantifiers/#comment-29080</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[johnathan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Oct 2012 23:27:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=3246#comment-29080</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi Gowers, Can you please explain what is the difference between saying &#039;there doesn&#039;t exist x such that P(x) is true&#039;, and &#039;for all x, p(x) is false&#039;?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Gowers, Can you please explain what is the difference between saying &#8216;there doesn&#8217;t exist x such that P(x) is true&#8217;, and &#8216;for all x, p(x) is false&#8217;?</p>
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		<title>By: gowers</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2011/09/30/basic-logic-quantifiers/#comment-21289</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[gowers]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2012 10:02:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=3246#comment-21289</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The standard meaning of &quot;natural numbers&quot; in Cambridge is &quot;positive integers&quot;. It&#039;s not a world standard, but I was writing primarily for Cambridge students (though I&#039;m of course delighted if anyone else wants to read the posts). I agree that &quot;at least that close&quot; would have been clearer than &quot;that close&quot;. Having said that, I would note that if I were to say, &quot;Do you think Usain Bolt can run 100m in 9.5 seconds?&quot; it would be obvious that I meant &quot;in under 9.5 seconds&quot; rather than &quot;in exactly 9.5 seconds&quot;. I think this is a similar example.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The standard meaning of &#8220;natural numbers&#8221; in Cambridge is &#8220;positive integers&#8221;. It&#8217;s not a world standard, but I was writing primarily for Cambridge students (though I&#8217;m of course delighted if anyone else wants to read the posts). I agree that &#8220;at least that close&#8221; would have been clearer than &#8220;that close&#8221;. Having said that, I would note that if I were to say, &#8220;Do you think Usain Bolt can run 100m in 9.5 seconds?&#8221; it would be obvious that I meant &#8220;in under 9.5 seconds&#8221; rather than &#8220;in exactly 9.5 seconds&#8221;. I think this is a similar example.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2011/09/30/basic-logic-quantifiers/#comment-21276</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Aug 2012 17:25:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=3246#comment-21276</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This is a great sequence of posts! One advantage of making your teachings available in this blog format is that they can reach audiences far away in time or distance. (I can only hope the two following short comments will not be deemed inappropriate for having been produced only now, by a faraway reader who is not a native speaker of English.)

In the present post you wrote “We also have $ latex \mathbb{N} $ for the set of natural numbers (or positive integers)”. This would have seemed to me to conflict with what I had assumed to be the usual terminology on &lt;a href=&quot;http://mathworld.wolfram.com/NaturalNumber.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;natural numbers&lt;/a&gt;, &lt;a href=&quot;http://mathworld.wolfram.com/PositiveInteger.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;positive integers&lt;/a&gt; and &lt;a href=&quot;http://mathworld.wolfram.com/PositiveInteger.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;nonnegative integers&lt;/a&gt;.  Or does it?

Further, your attempted translation of the statement about convergence of a sequence, “However close you want $ latex a_n $ to be to $ latex a $ eventually it will always be that close”, gave me a somewhat misleading impression that one could have intended to mean a given precise distance, in other words, it gave me the feeling that the expression “that close” could be translated back in such a way that the strict order in the corresponding mathematical statement would be replaced by an equality (which is surely not intended).  Maybe writing “be within that distance” instead of “be that close” would do more justice to the original mathematical statement?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a great sequence of posts! One advantage of making your teachings available in this blog format is that they can reach audiences far away in time or distance. (I can only hope the two following short comments will not be deemed inappropriate for having been produced only now, by a faraway reader who is not a native speaker of English.)</p>
<p>In the present post you wrote “We also have $ latex \mathbb{N} $ for the set of natural numbers (or positive integers)”. This would have seemed to me to conflict with what I had assumed to be the usual terminology on <a href="http://mathworld.wolfram.com/NaturalNumber.html" rel="nofollow">natural numbers</a>, <a href="http://mathworld.wolfram.com/PositiveInteger.html" rel="nofollow">positive integers</a> and <a href="http://mathworld.wolfram.com/PositiveInteger.html" rel="nofollow">nonnegative integers</a>.  Or does it?</p>
<p>Further, your attempted translation of the statement about convergence of a sequence, “However close you want $ latex a_n $ to be to $ latex a $ eventually it will always be that close”, gave me a somewhat misleading impression that one could have intended to mean a given precise distance, in other words, it gave me the feeling that the expression “that close” could be translated back in such a way that the strict order in the corresponding mathematical statement would be replaced by an equality (which is surely not intended).  Maybe writing “be within that distance” instead of “be that close” would do more justice to the original mathematical statement?</p>
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		<title>By: Joel</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2011/09/30/basic-logic-quantifiers/#comment-13259</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Joel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Nov 2011 23:14:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=3246#comment-13259</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I note that you have not quite followed my &quot;quantifier packaging&quot; approach, which involves giving a name to the intermediate concepts (e.g. &quot;absorption&quot; of sequences by sets). I can think of many possible reasons for this, including the following:
(1) it may be undesirable to introduce non-standard terminology;
(2) the students need to learn to &quot;package&quot; the quantifiers for themselves, and not become dependent on the teachers to do this for them.
(3) If you do introduce new/non-standard terminology, it will only be in a limited number of settings. You want to emphasize that the students should be able to do this for themselves for all multi-quantifier statements.
What are your thoughts here?
    Joel]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I note that you have not quite followed my &#8220;quantifier packaging&#8221; approach, which involves giving a name to the intermediate concepts (e.g. &#8220;absorption&#8221; of sequences by sets). I can think of many possible reasons for this, including the following:<br />
(1) it may be undesirable to introduce non-standard terminology;<br />
(2) the students need to learn to &#8220;package&#8221; the quantifiers for themselves, and not become dependent on the teachers to do this for them.<br />
(3) If you do introduce new/non-standard terminology, it will only be in a limited number of settings. You want to emphasize that the students should be able to do this for themselves for all multi-quantifier statements.<br />
What are your thoughts here?<br />
    Joel</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2011/09/30/basic-logic-quantifiers/#comment-13225</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Nov 2011 06:26:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=3246#comment-13225</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Mark Meckes from CWRU brought me here.  This post is absolutely brilliant.  The amount of care that went into writing this post is way up there with Warren Esty&#039;s Foundations of Logic.  Thank you for this excellent resource.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark Meckes from CWRU brought me here.  This post is absolutely brilliant.  The amount of care that went into writing this post is way up there with Warren Esty&#8217;s Foundations of Logic.  Thank you for this excellent resource.</p>
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		<title>By: gowers</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2011/09/30/basic-logic-quantifiers/#comment-12263</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[gowers]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Oct 2011 09:17:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=3246#comment-12263</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Is it possible to send this comment again? I think you must have used the &quot;is less than&quot; symbol directly, which often causes trouble because Wordpress interprets it as html. So instead you have to type &amp;lt: except that where I&#039;ve just put a colon you put a semicolon. &quot;Is greater than&quot; is &amp;gt:  -- again with a semicolon instead of a colon.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is it possible to send this comment again? I think you must have used the &#8220;is less than&#8221; symbol directly, which often causes trouble because WordPress interprets it as html. So instead you have to type &amp;lt: except that where I&#8217;ve just put a colon you put a semicolon. &#8220;Is greater than&#8221; is &amp;gt:  &#8212; again with a semicolon instead of a colon.</p>
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		<title>By: dieta</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2011/09/30/basic-logic-quantifiers/#comment-12258</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[dieta]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Oct 2011 21:31:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=3246#comment-12258</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Davenport and Heintz 1988 proved that quantifier elimination is in fact at least there exists a family n of formulas with n quantifiers of length O n and constant degree such that any quantifier-free formula equivalent to n must involve polynomials of degree and length using ..Basu and Roy 1996 proved that there exists a well-behaved algorithm to decide the truth of a formula x1 xk P1 x1 xk 0 Ps x1 xk 0 where is or with complexity in arithmetic operations sk 1dO k ..]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Davenport and Heintz 1988 proved that quantifier elimination is in fact at least there exists a family n of formulas with n quantifiers of length O n and constant degree such that any quantifier-free formula equivalent to n must involve polynomials of degree and length using ..Basu and Roy 1996 proved that there exists a well-behaved algorithm to decide the truth of a formula x1 xk P1 x1 xk 0 Ps x1 xk 0 where is or with complexity in arithmetic operations sk 1dO k ..</p>
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		<title>By: gowers</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2011/09/30/basic-logic-quantifiers/#comment-12185</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[gowers]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Oct 2011 21:07:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=3246#comment-12185</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks. I hope I&#039;ve finally got it sorted out now.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks. I hope I&#8217;ve finally got it sorted out now.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Chris Purcell</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2011/09/30/basic-logic-quantifiers/#comment-12184</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chris Purcell]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Oct 2011 20:48:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=3246#comment-12184</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I assume you removed &quot;s.t.&quot; from your first statement in &quot;Creating mathematical statements that involve quantifiers&quot;. Unfortunately, you did not remove it from the _description_ of the statement, which assumes it is still there. (&#039;read “s. t.” as “such that”&#039;, etc.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I assume you removed &#8220;s.t.&#8221; from your first statement in &#8220;Creating mathematical statements that involve quantifiers&#8221;. Unfortunately, you did not remove it from the _description_ of the statement, which assumes it is still there. (&#8216;read “s. t.” as “such that”&#8217;, etc.)</p>
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		<title>By: gowers</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2011/09/30/basic-logic-quantifiers/#comment-12174</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[gowers]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Oct 2011 08:25:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=3246#comment-12174</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I had a policy of avoiding &quot;s.t.&quot;, so the fact that one of them slipped in was an accident. Thanks for pointing that out -- I have now removed it.

I decided to go down the implication route in order to correct the other mistake. It&#039;s slightly confusing for the reason you say, but I think it&#039;s reasonably close to how we actually think about that version of the definition. For instance, in a metric space I think we would probably quantify over open balls. And sometimes we sloppily write $latex \forall a&lt;b$ in a situation like this.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I had a policy of avoiding &#8220;s.t.&#8221;, so the fact that one of them slipped in was an accident. Thanks for pointing that out &#8212; I have now removed it.</p>
<p>I decided to go down the implication route in order to correct the other mistake. It&#8217;s slightly confusing for the reason you say, but I think it&#8217;s reasonably close to how we actually think about that version of the definition. For instance, in a metric space I think we would probably quantify over open balls. And sometimes we sloppily write <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5Cforall+a%3Cb&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;forall a&lt;b' title='&#92;forall a&lt;b' class='latex' /> in a situation like this.</p>
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		<title>By: Veky</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2011/09/30/basic-logic-quantifiers/#comment-12173</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Veky]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Oct 2011 08:16:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=3246#comment-12173</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[First, of course, such as there is no direct translation word for word from English to Japanese (and reverse), there is also no such translation from English to first order (and reverse). However, I admire you, prof. Gowers, for trying to approximate the impossible, in a way that should be helpful to many math students. (Maybe you should be more explicit in pointing out it is only an approximation, but that&#039;s just my opinion.)

That said, I&#039;d like to point out two things.

First, you have an error in your example &quot;Whenever a,b are real numbers with a less than b...&quot; -- you forgot to translate &quot;with&quot; (the precondition that a be less than b). Probably because it is a bit hard to translate into a symbolism you use, when you can either quantify same way over many variables, or quantify with conditions, but usually not both. You can use implication, which will probably confuse things because then you don&#039;t have prenex normal form, you can say &quot;r is between a and b&quot; in a more precise way that doesn&#039;t presume a being less than b, or you can split variables:
&quot;for every a in reals, for every b greater than a, there is...&quot;. But you can&#039;t just leave it as it is.

Second, I strongly recommend you not to use &quot;s.t.&quot; in symbolic sentences. It goes counter to your (excellent) advice not to intermix symbols and words in weak chunks, and trying to defend it as a symbol is very wrong. See 10th comment, point (ii), by David Ullrich, in http://www.mathkb.com/Uwe/Forum.aspx/math/39701/Symbol-for-such-that. In short, just as reverse A doesn&#039;t mean &quot;every&quot; but &quot;for every&quot;, reverse E doesn&#039;t mean &quot;exists&quot; but &quot;exists ... such that&quot;. Yes, it&#039;s split, but so is &quot;if ... then&quot;.

I know I should be very careful when correcting a Fields medallist about math style, and I know there is a fair bit of tradition in such matters, but I believe this is not only a stylistic question, but also a mathematical one -- the same way you feel about &quot;implies&quot; vs. &quot;if ... then&quot;. And the tradition is wrong (mathematically).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First, of course, such as there is no direct translation word for word from English to Japanese (and reverse), there is also no such translation from English to first order (and reverse). However, I admire you, prof. Gowers, for trying to approximate the impossible, in a way that should be helpful to many math students. (Maybe you should be more explicit in pointing out it is only an approximation, but that&#8217;s just my opinion.)</p>
<p>That said, I&#8217;d like to point out two things.</p>
<p>First, you have an error in your example &#8220;Whenever a,b are real numbers with a less than b&#8230;&#8221; &#8212; you forgot to translate &#8220;with&#8221; (the precondition that a be less than b). Probably because it is a bit hard to translate into a symbolism you use, when you can either quantify same way over many variables, or quantify with conditions, but usually not both. You can use implication, which will probably confuse things because then you don&#8217;t have prenex normal form, you can say &#8220;r is between a and b&#8221; in a more precise way that doesn&#8217;t presume a being less than b, or you can split variables:<br />
&#8220;for every a in reals, for every b greater than a, there is&#8230;&#8221;. But you can&#8217;t just leave it as it is.</p>
<p>Second, I strongly recommend you not to use &#8220;s.t.&#8221; in symbolic sentences. It goes counter to your (excellent) advice not to intermix symbols and words in weak chunks, and trying to defend it as a symbol is very wrong. See 10th comment, point (ii), by David Ullrich, in <a href="http://www.mathkb.com/Uwe/Forum.aspx/math/39701/Symbol-for-such-that" rel="nofollow">http://www.mathkb.com/Uwe/Forum.aspx/math/39701/Symbol-for-such-that</a>. In short, just as reverse A doesn&#8217;t mean &#8220;every&#8221; but &#8220;for every&#8221;, reverse E doesn&#8217;t mean &#8220;exists&#8221; but &#8220;exists &#8230; such that&#8221;. Yes, it&#8217;s split, but so is &#8220;if &#8230; then&#8221;.</p>
<p>I know I should be very careful when correcting a Fields medallist about math style, and I know there is a fair bit of tradition in such matters, but I believe this is not only a stylistic question, but also a mathematical one &#8212; the same way you feel about &#8220;implies&#8221; vs. &#8220;if &#8230; then&#8221;. And the tradition is wrong (mathematically).</p>
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		<title>By: Florian</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2011/09/30/basic-logic-quantifiers/#comment-12166</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Florian]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Oct 2011 13:41:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=3246#comment-12166</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I noticed that when translating English sentences to logical sentences containing quantifiers, one should take care of sentences like
&quot;If an exiting movie exists, it will have a contrived plot.&quot;
I noticed that a lot of students blindly apply the translation rules, ending up with
$latex (\exists x: M(x))\Longrightarrow C(x)$ (the predicates M stands for being an exciting movie and C for having a contrived plot).
But this is not correct because the second $latex x$ is not bound to the existential quantifier. However if one thinks about the sentence, one will notice that the actual meaning is
&quot;Exciting movies have contrived plots&quot;
and thus it&#039;s a for-all statement ($latex \forall x: (M(x) \Longrightarrow C(x))$).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I noticed that when translating English sentences to logical sentences containing quantifiers, one should take care of sentences like<br />
&#8220;If an exiting movie exists, it will have a contrived plot.&#8221;<br />
I noticed that a lot of students blindly apply the translation rules, ending up with<br />
<img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%28%5Cexists+x%3A+M%28x%29%29%5CLongrightarrow+C%28x%29&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='(&#92;exists x: M(x))&#92;Longrightarrow C(x)' title='(&#92;exists x: M(x))&#92;Longrightarrow C(x)' class='latex' /> (the predicates M stands for being an exciting movie and C for having a contrived plot).<br />
But this is not correct because the second <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=x&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='x' title='x' class='latex' /> is not bound to the existential quantifier. However if one thinks about the sentence, one will notice that the actual meaning is<br />
&#8220;Exciting movies have contrived plots&#8221;<br />
and thus it&#8217;s a for-all statement (<img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5Cforall+x%3A+%28M%28x%29+%5CLongrightarrow+C%28x%29%29&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;forall x: (M(x) &#92;Longrightarrow C(x))' title='&#92;forall x: (M(x) &#92;Longrightarrow C(x))' class='latex' />).</p>
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		<title>By: gowers</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2011/09/30/basic-logic-quantifiers/#comment-12164</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[gowers]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Oct 2011 09:17:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=3246#comment-12164</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree that that&#039;s a good thing to do. In case anyone is wondering why I haven&#039;t mentioned negating sentences with strings of quantifiers, that&#039;s because it&#039;s coming up in the next post, which is on negation.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that that&#8217;s a good thing to do. In case anyone is wondering why I haven&#8217;t mentioned negating sentences with strings of quantifiers, that&#8217;s because it&#8217;s coming up in the next post, which is on negation.</p>
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		<title>By: Jack</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2011/09/30/basic-logic-quantifiers/#comment-12163</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jack]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Oct 2011 08:08:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=3246#comment-12163</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[When translating the mathematical expressions into English, I like to translate the negations as well, so that students can see things like what you get to pick when finding a counterexample or how to start a proof by contradiction correctly.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When translating the mathematical expressions into English, I like to translate the negations as well, so that students can see things like what you get to pick when finding a counterexample or how to start a proof by contradiction correctly.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2011/09/30/basic-logic-quantifiers/#comment-12161</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Oct 2011 02:08:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=3246#comment-12161</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[can you write something on Fuzzy logic?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>can you write something on Fuzzy logic?</p>
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		<title>By: Terence Tao</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2011/09/30/basic-logic-quantifiers/#comment-12156</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Terence Tao]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Sep 2011 15:57:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=3246#comment-12156</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Though it is possible for some English sentences (and ever a handful of mathematical sentences) to be &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonfirstorderizability&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;nonfirstorderisable&lt;/a&gt;, such as the Geach-Kaplan sentence &quot;Some critics admire only one another&quot;.  These sentences require either second-order logic (quantifying over predicates, rather than objects) or set theory in order to properly formalise.

Still, this is not a major concern in most of mathematics, as one is usually willing to use the framework of set theory to model such sentences.  (There are subtle model-theoretic differences between the set-theoretic formalisation and the second-order logic formalisation, but this is an issue that is primarily of concern to logicians rather than to  most mathematicians.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Though it is possible for some English sentences (and ever a handful of mathematical sentences) to be <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonfirstorderizability" rel="nofollow">nonfirstorderisable</a>, such as the Geach-Kaplan sentence &#8220;Some critics admire only one another&#8221;.  These sentences require either second-order logic (quantifying over predicates, rather than objects) or set theory in order to properly formalise.</p>
<p>Still, this is not a major concern in most of mathematics, as one is usually willing to use the framework of set theory to model such sentences.  (There are subtle model-theoretic differences between the set-theoretic formalisation and the second-order logic formalisation, but this is an issue that is primarily of concern to logicians rather than to  most mathematicians.)</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Baron</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2011/09/30/basic-logic-quantifiers/#comment-12148</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Richard Baron]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Sep 2011 11:16:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=3246#comment-12148</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Once students have got the idea, and if it is not too great a distraction from proper work, it is fun to ask them to put into symbols:

Everyone loves someone (the order of quantifiers has serious implications)

All drinks must be ordered at the bar (you can run up a large bar tab if you are not careful with this one)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Once students have got the idea, and if it is not too great a distraction from proper work, it is fun to ask them to put into symbols:</p>
<p>Everyone loves someone (the order of quantifiers has serious implications)</p>
<p>All drinks must be ordered at the bar (you can run up a large bar tab if you are not careful with this one)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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