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	<title>Comments on: Basic logic &#8212; connectives &#8212; AND and OR</title>
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		<title>By: Relationships</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2011/09/25/basic-logic-connectives-and-and-or/#comment-16563</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Relationships]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Mar 2012 20:04:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=3172#comment-16563</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;strong&gt;Relationships...&lt;/strong&gt;

[...]Basic logic &#8212; connectives &#8212; AND and OR &#171; Gowers&#039;s Weblog[...]...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Relationships&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>[...]Basic logic &#8212; connectives &#8212; AND and OR &laquo; Gowers&#039;s Weblog[...]&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Jimbo</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2011/09/25/basic-logic-connectives-and-and-or/#comment-13728</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jimbo]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Nov 2011 09:27:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=3172#comment-13728</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There is an additional subtle difference between &quot;the set of cats and dogs&quot; and &quot;the set of numbers that are even and square&quot;, which seems to be important - the phrase &quot;that are&quot;.

&quot;the set of cats and dogs&quot;, I&#039;d intuitively think of as containing both cats and dogs whereas &quot;the set of animals that are cats and dogs&quot; I would say is empty.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is an additional subtle difference between &#8220;the set of cats and dogs&#8221; and &#8220;the set of numbers that are even and square&#8221;, which seems to be important &#8211; the phrase &#8220;that are&#8221;.</p>
<p>&#8220;the set of cats and dogs&#8221;, I&#8217;d intuitively think of as containing both cats and dogs whereas &#8220;the set of animals that are cats and dogs&#8221; I would say is empty.</p>
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		<title>By: ipad</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2011/09/25/basic-logic-connectives-and-and-or/#comment-12766</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ipad]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Oct 2011 07:36:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=3172#comment-12766</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;strong&gt;Is a sentiment...&lt;/strong&gt;

Excellent web sitePlenty of useful info hereIï¿½m sending it to a few buddies ans additionally sharing in deliciousAnd obviously, thank you on your sweat!...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Is a sentiment&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>Excellent web sitePlenty of useful info hereIï¿½m sending it to a few buddies ans additionally sharing in deliciousAnd obviously, thank you on your sweat!&#8230;</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Hãy học lô-gíc cơ bản với Tiến sĩ Gowers, giải thưởng Fields 1998 &#171; Út V. Lê</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2011/09/25/basic-logic-connectives-and-and-or/#comment-12151</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Hãy học lô-gíc cơ bản với Tiến sĩ Gowers, giải thưởng Fields 1998 &#171; Út V. Lê]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Sep 2011 11:24:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=3172#comment-12151</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] thought quite a bit more about what I want to say. The straw that broke the camel’s back was a comment by Daniel Hill in which he pointed out that “implies” wasn’t, strictly speaking, a connective at [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] thought quite a bit more about what I want to say. The straw that broke the camel’s back was a comment by Daniel Hill in which he pointed out that “implies” wasn’t, strictly speaking, a connective at [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2011/09/25/basic-logic-connectives-and-and-or/#comment-12150</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Sep 2011 11:24:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=3172#comment-12150</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Of course! I should have been more careful. Thanks for the correction.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course! I should have been more careful. Thanks for the correction.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Baron</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2011/09/25/basic-logic-connectives-and-and-or/#comment-12147</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Richard Baron]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Sep 2011 10:37:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=3172#comment-12147</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Would you accept the following amended version of your paragraph beginning &quot;Clearly&quot;? (The critical change is from &quot;P or Q&quot; to &quot;not P or not Q&quot;.)

Clearly, “not( P and Q)” will be true whenever “P and Q” is false. But, “P and Q” is false precisely when “not P or not Q” is true, with &quot;or&quot; being understood to be inclusive.

Then I can see what you mean. &quot;And&quot; and &quot;or&quot; go together nicely, so long as &quot;or&quot; is inclusive.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Would you accept the following amended version of your paragraph beginning &#8220;Clearly&#8221;? (The critical change is from &#8220;P or Q&#8221; to &#8220;not P or not Q&#8221;.)</p>
<p>Clearly, “not( P and Q)” will be true whenever “P and Q” is false. But, “P and Q” is false precisely when “not P or not Q” is true, with &#8220;or&#8221; being understood to be inclusive.</p>
<p>Then I can see what you mean. &#8220;And&#8221; and &#8220;or&#8221; go together nicely, so long as &#8220;or&#8221; is inclusive.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2011/09/25/basic-logic-connectives-and-and-or/#comment-12142</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Sep 2011 02:44:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=3172#comment-12142</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I always used to wonder why we define &quot;or&quot; as being the inclusive or  rather than the exclusive or. At least for me the explanation that made sense runs like this:

1. &quot;P and Q&quot; is true if and only if P is true and Q is true. 

The above definition of &quot;and&quot; is relatively intuitive as it is consistent with everyday usage.

2. Given 1, when would a statement such as &quot;not (P and Q)&quot; be true? 

Clearly, &quot;not( P and Q)&quot; will be true whenever &quot;P and Q&quot; is false. But, &quot;P and Q&quot; is false precisely when &quot;P or Q&quot; is true with or being understood to be inclusive.

Thus, the above argument indicates that the inclusive or is needed to make ensure that the truth values of &quot;not (P and Q)&quot; is consistent with the truth values of &quot;P and Q&quot;.

Hopefully the above makes sense and is of use to someone.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I always used to wonder why we define &#8220;or&#8221; as being the inclusive or  rather than the exclusive or. At least for me the explanation that made sense runs like this:</p>
<p>1. &#8220;P and Q&#8221; is true if and only if P is true and Q is true. </p>
<p>The above definition of &#8220;and&#8221; is relatively intuitive as it is consistent with everyday usage.</p>
<p>2. Given 1, when would a statement such as &#8220;not (P and Q)&#8221; be true? </p>
<p>Clearly, &#8220;not( P and Q)&#8221; will be true whenever &#8220;P and Q&#8221; is false. But, &#8220;P and Q&#8221; is false precisely when &#8220;P or Q&#8221; is true with or being understood to be inclusive.</p>
<p>Thus, the above argument indicates that the inclusive or is needed to make ensure that the truth values of &#8220;not (P and Q)&#8221; is consistent with the truth values of &#8220;P and Q&#8221;.</p>
<p>Hopefully the above makes sense and is of use to someone.</p>
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		<title>By: gowers</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2011/09/25/basic-logic-connectives-and-and-or/#comment-12135</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[gowers]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Sep 2011 09:59:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=3172#comment-12135</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;ve thought of a counterexample, though it involves imperatives and is therefore perhaps not perfect. If I were to get cross with my young son, I might say, &quot;Stop that or I&#039;ll send you to your room.&quot; If my son obediently stopped and I then said, &quot;Right, it&#039;s off to your room with you,&quot; he would feel utterly confused and indignant. The clear understanding of this &quot;or&quot; is that it is exclusive, and yet it is possible for my son to obey me and for me to send him to his room, so the &quot;and&quot; is not ruled out.

Similar remarks apply to other connectives. If I hear somebody say, &quot;Put your hand up if you would like to go to the seaside,&quot; and I have no wish whatsoever to go the seaside, it would be considered misleading of me to put my hand up: that particular &quot;if&quot; is understood as &quot;if and only if&quot;. 

I&#039;m sure you&#039;re familiar with such examples, but in case anyone else is reading this comment who isn&#039;t, the notion of &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implicature&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Gricean implicature&lt;/a&gt; is quite entertaining, and relevant to this.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve thought of a counterexample, though it involves imperatives and is therefore perhaps not perfect. If I were to get cross with my young son, I might say, &#8220;Stop that or I&#8217;ll send you to your room.&#8221; If my son obediently stopped and I then said, &#8220;Right, it&#8217;s off to your room with you,&#8221; he would feel utterly confused and indignant. The clear understanding of this &#8220;or&#8221; is that it is exclusive, and yet it is possible for my son to obey me and for me to send him to his room, so the &#8220;and&#8221; is not ruled out.</p>
<p>Similar remarks apply to other connectives. If I hear somebody say, &#8220;Put your hand up if you would like to go to the seaside,&#8221; and I have no wish whatsoever to go the seaside, it would be considered misleading of me to put my hand up: that particular &#8220;if&#8221; is understood as &#8220;if and only if&#8221;. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m sure you&#8217;re familiar with such examples, but in case anyone else is reading this comment who isn&#8217;t, the notion of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implicature" rel="nofollow">Gricean implicature</a> is quite entertaining, and relevant to this.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2011/09/25/basic-logic-connectives-and-and-or/#comment-12132</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Sep 2011 03:45:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=3172#comment-12132</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Let me quote this paragraph:

[But if all you know is that “P or Q” is true, then your task is more difficult. This time what you have to do is split your argument into cases. If you are given that “P or Q” is true, and you want to deduce R, then you must show that you can deduce R if you assume P (and whatever else you know) and that you can also deduce R if you assume Q (and whatever else you know). That way, since at least one of P and Q is guaranteed to be true, R must be true. So in a proof you might write something like this: “First let us assume that P. Then … blah blah … so R follows. Now let us assume that Q. Then … blah blah … and again R follows. Therefore the result is proved.”]

Is this where &quot;[proof by cases](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_exhaustion)&quot; from?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let me quote this paragraph:</p>
<p>[But if all you know is that “P or Q” is true, then your task is more difficult. This time what you have to do is split your argument into cases. If you are given that “P or Q” is true, and you want to deduce R, then you must show that you can deduce R if you assume P (and whatever else you know) and that you can also deduce R if you assume Q (and whatever else you know). That way, since at least one of P and Q is guaranteed to be true, R must be true. So in a proof you might write something like this: “First let us assume that P. Then … blah blah … so R follows. Now let us assume that Q. Then … blah blah … and again R follows. Therefore the result is proved.”]</p>
<p>Is this where &#8220;[proof by cases](<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_exhaustion" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_exhaustion</a>)&#8221; from?</p>
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		<title>By: Doug Spoonwood</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2011/09/25/basic-logic-connectives-and-and-or/#comment-12130</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Doug Spoonwood]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Sep 2011 02:07:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=3172#comment-12130</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Todd Trimble Sure, &quot;OR&quot; interpreted as sup (or inf), and &quot;AND&quot; as inf (or sup respectively) comes as more accurate.  Distribution then may or may not happen (i. e. not all lattices distribute).  But, if you have a two-element set {a, b} of natural, integers, reals, or rationals, and the sup (inf) belongs to the set, then the max (min) behave just like the sup (inf).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Todd Trimble Sure, &#8220;OR&#8221; interpreted as sup (or inf), and &#8220;AND&#8221; as inf (or sup respectively) comes as more accurate.  Distribution then may or may not happen (i. e. not all lattices distribute).  But, if you have a two-element set {a, b} of natural, integers, reals, or rationals, and the sup (inf) belongs to the set, then the max (min) behave just like the sup (inf).</p>
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		<title>By: Kiril</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2011/09/25/basic-logic-connectives-and-and-or/#comment-12126</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kiril]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Sep 2011 21:26:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=3172#comment-12126</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Could you please say more about how to deduce all the different forms of the distributive law from a single more general one? That sounds extremely interesting and I haven&#039;t been able to figure it out.

Thanks!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Could you please say more about how to deduce all the different forms of the distributive law from a single more general one? That sounds extremely interesting and I haven&#8217;t been able to figure it out.</p>
<p>Thanks!</p>
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		<title>By: Todd Trimble</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2011/09/25/basic-logic-connectives-and-and-or/#comment-12109</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Todd Trimble]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Sep 2011 14:58:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=3172#comment-12109</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ah, but there is a useful distinction to be made here after all: whereas &quot;implies&quot; is the name usually given to the connective $latex \Rightarrow$ (so that if $latex p$ and $latex q$ denote propositions, then there is a proposition $latex p \Rightarrow q$), the word &quot;entails&quot; refers to the relation. That is, one writes $latex p \vdash q$, pronounced &quot;$latex p$ entails $latex q$&quot;, to say that one may infer $latex q$ from $latex p$ in a deductive system. This turn out to be a useful distinction, and perhaps this was the distinction Quine meant.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, but there is a useful distinction to be made here after all: whereas &#8220;implies&#8221; is the name usually given to the connective <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5CRightarrow&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;Rightarrow' title='&#92;Rightarrow' class='latex' /> (so that if <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=p&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='p' title='p' class='latex' /> and <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=q&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='q' title='q' class='latex' /> denote propositions, then there is a proposition <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=p+%5CRightarrow+q&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='p &#92;Rightarrow q' title='p &#92;Rightarrow q' class='latex' />), the word &#8220;entails&#8221; refers to the relation. That is, one writes <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=p+%5Cvdash+q&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='p &#92;vdash q' title='p &#92;vdash q' class='latex' />, pronounced &#8220;<img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=p&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='p' title='p' class='latex' /> entails <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=q&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='q' title='q' class='latex' />&#8220;, to say that one may infer <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=q&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='q' title='q' class='latex' /> from <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=p&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='p' title='p' class='latex' /> in a deductive system. This turn out to be a useful distinction, and perhaps this was the distinction Quine meant.</p>
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		<title>By: Todd Trimble</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2011/09/25/basic-logic-connectives-and-and-or/#comment-12108</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Todd Trimble]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Sep 2011 14:50:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=3172#comment-12108</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Except that &quot;or&quot; (applied to propositions) isn&#039;t a maximum! A maximum between two elements would mean whichever is greater, whereas two propositions may not be comparable in logical strength. Instead, the &quot;or&quot; should be interpreted as a least upper bound.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Except that &#8220;or&#8221; (applied to propositions) isn&#8217;t a maximum! A maximum between two elements would mean whichever is greater, whereas two propositions may not be comparable in logical strength. Instead, the &#8220;or&#8221; should be interpreted as a least upper bound.</p>
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		<title>By: Todd Trimble</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2011/09/25/basic-logic-connectives-and-and-or/#comment-12107</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Todd Trimble]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Sep 2011 14:32:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=3172#comment-12107</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The connective $latex \Rightarrow$ can be and is pronounced &quot;implies&quot; by logicians and non-logicians alike. The fact that colloquially it is also used (harmlessly!) between names of statements should not obscure recognition of this fact. My own feeling is that this was not at all a helpful bit of pedantry on Quine&#039;s part.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The connective <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5CRightarrow&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;Rightarrow' title='&#92;Rightarrow' class='latex' /> can be and is pronounced &#8220;implies&#8221; by logicians and non-logicians alike. The fact that colloquially it is also used (harmlessly!) between names of statements should not obscure recognition of this fact. My own feeling is that this was not at all a helpful bit of pedantry on Quine&#8217;s part.</p>
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		<title>By: Basic logic &#8212; connectives &#8212; IMPLIES &#171; Gowers&#039;s Weblog</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2011/09/25/basic-logic-connectives-and-and-or/#comment-12098</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Basic logic &#8212; connectives &#8212; IMPLIES &#171; Gowers&#039;s Weblog]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Sep 2011 11:35:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=3172#comment-12098</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] thought quite a bit more about what I want to say. The straw that broke the camel&#8217;s back was a comment by Daniel Hill in which he pointed out that &#8220;implies&#8221; wasn&#8217;t, strictly speaking, a connective at [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] thought quite a bit more about what I want to say. The straw that broke the camel&#8217;s back was a comment by Daniel Hill in which he pointed out that &#8220;implies&#8221; wasn&#8217;t, strictly speaking, a connective at [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Doug Spoonwood</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2011/09/25/basic-logic-connectives-and-and-or/#comment-12096</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Doug Spoonwood]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Sep 2011 01:00:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=3172#comment-12096</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;The distributive law in arithmetic is the one that says that x(y+z)=xy+xz. By a miracle, exactly the same rule applies to \vee and \wedge.&quot;

     In my opinion, it isn&#039;t so surprising that &quot;OR&quot; and &quot;AND&quot; distribute over each other.  Two very simple ways to interpret &quot;OR&quot; and &quot;AND&quot; are to think of &quot;OR&quot; as the maximum (minimum), and &quot;AND&quot; as the minimum (maximum) on an ordered set of two natural numbers, integers, rational numbers, or real numbers {a, b}.  Via either of those interpretations distribution of both connectives over each other readily follows.   The greater surprise, in my opinion, comes as that multiplication distributes over addition in arithmetic.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The distributive law in arithmetic is the one that says that x(y+z)=xy+xz. By a miracle, exactly the same rule applies to \vee and \wedge.&#8221;</p>
<p>     In my opinion, it isn&#8217;t so surprising that &#8220;OR&#8221; and &#8220;AND&#8221; distribute over each other.  Two very simple ways to interpret &#8220;OR&#8221; and &#8220;AND&#8221; are to think of &#8220;OR&#8221; as the maximum (minimum), and &#8220;AND&#8221; as the minimum (maximum) on an ordered set of two natural numbers, integers, rational numbers, or real numbers {a, b}.  Via either of those interpretations distribution of both connectives over each other readily follows.   The greater surprise, in my opinion, comes as that multiplication distributes over addition in arithmetic.</p>
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		<title>By: gowers</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2011/09/25/basic-logic-connectives-and-and-or/#comment-12094</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[gowers]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Sep 2011 21:13:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=3172#comment-12094</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Oops, I meant to write, &quot;Clearly we &lt;em&gt;don&#039;t&lt;/em&gt; mean these as names of statements.&quot; What I actually wrote was nonsense, as you point out, but it wasn&#039;t what was in my brain at the time, and I think with the extra word &quot;don&#039;t&quot; it becomes OK (and agrees with you).

I&#039;ve decided to add the word &quot;don&#039;t&quot; so as not to confuse people. Of course, that makes your response confusing, but I hope that this reply will deal with that.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops, I meant to write, &#8220;Clearly we <em>don&#8217;t</em> mean these as names of statements.&#8221; What I actually wrote was nonsense, as you point out, but it wasn&#8217;t what was in my brain at the time, and I think with the extra word &#8220;don&#8217;t&#8221; it becomes OK (and agrees with you).</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve decided to add the word &#8220;don&#8217;t&#8221; so as not to confuse people. Of course, that makes your response confusing, but I hope that this reply will deal with that.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel J. Hill</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2011/09/25/basic-logic-connectives-and-and-or/#comment-12093</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Daniel J. Hill]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Sep 2011 20:56:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=3172#comment-12093</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks very much for this gracious and helpful reply, Prof. Gowers, and let me say what I should have said straightaway, viz. how good and kind it is that you are taking time to help non-experts (like me) master the basics.

Just one point: you say `Clearly we mean these as names of statements, or we wouldn’t be able to say P\wedgeQ.&#039; But I think the example works against the principle you are trying to draw: the wedge symbol is written between statements, not names of statements, to create a further statement. There are complications here depending on whether `P&#039; and `Q&#039; are supposed to be meta-variables in our metalanguage or, as I&#039;d taken them, dummy sentence letters in the object language, but clearly `the Axiom of Choice and Zorn&#039;s Lemma&#039; isn&#039;t a statement, but just a conjunction of names, whereas what we want is something like `1 + 1 = 2 and 2 + 2 = 4&#039; where we have on each side of the connective a statement, not a name.

(Some people, e.g. Machover, have two sorts of arrows, one (single-shafted) to abbreviate `if . . . then&#039; and one (double-shafted) in the metalanguage for `implies&#039;.)

Anyway, I am looking forward to the rest of the posts -- thanks again for doing this.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks very much for this gracious and helpful reply, Prof. Gowers, and let me say what I should have said straightaway, viz. how good and kind it is that you are taking time to help non-experts (like me) master the basics.</p>
<p>Just one point: you say `Clearly we mean these as names of statements, or we wouldn’t be able to say P\wedgeQ.&#8217; But I think the example works against the principle you are trying to draw: the wedge symbol is written between statements, not names of statements, to create a further statement. There are complications here depending on whether `P&#8217; and `Q&#8217; are supposed to be meta-variables in our metalanguage or, as I&#8217;d taken them, dummy sentence letters in the object language, but clearly `the Axiom of Choice and Zorn&#8217;s Lemma&#8217; isn&#8217;t a statement, but just a conjunction of names, whereas what we want is something like `1 + 1 = 2 and 2 + 2 = 4&#8242; where we have on each side of the connective a statement, not a name.</p>
<p>(Some people, e.g. Machover, have two sorts of arrows, one (single-shafted) to abbreviate `if . . . then&#8217; and one (double-shafted) in the metalanguage for `implies&#8217;.)</p>
<p>Anyway, I am looking forward to the rest of the posts &#8212; thanks again for doing this.</p>
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		<title>By: gowers</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2011/09/25/basic-logic-connectives-and-and-or/#comment-12092</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[gowers]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Sep 2011 20:16:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=3172#comment-12092</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I see your point entirely, even to the extent of there being a section in my next post about the difference between &quot;implies&quot; and &quot;therefore&quot; in which I said that implies was a relationship between statements, by which I meant names of statements. And from time to time I&#039;ve wanted to illustrate what I am saying with examples and have found myself having to put in ugly inverted commas.

The difficulty I have is that (i) we often write things like $latex x+6=15\implies x=9$ and (ii) we read the symbol &quot;$latex \implies$&quot; as &quot;implies&quot;. I see that the Wikipedia article is quite careful about this and says that the symbol means if ... then. 

Another thing is that we happily write $latex P\implies Q$ when $latex P$ and $latex Q$ are unknown statements. Clearly we don&#039;t mean these as &lt;em&gt;names&lt;/em&gt; of statements, or we wouldn&#039;t be able to say $latex P\wedge Q.$ And yet most people (I think) read $latex P\implies Q$ as &quot;P implies Q&quot;.

Anyhow, thanks for the comment. As you suspected, pedantic objections are welcome. I now have to think how to strike the right balance between getting everything correct and being intelligible. What I really care about is that people should be able to do things like negating implications, so I don&#039;t want to scare people off with subtle distinctions. But I&#039;d much rather be accurate than inaccurate. I&#039;ve got some rewriting to do before I put up my next post ...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see your point entirely, even to the extent of there being a section in my next post about the difference between &#8220;implies&#8221; and &#8220;therefore&#8221; in which I said that implies was a relationship between statements, by which I meant names of statements. And from time to time I&#8217;ve wanted to illustrate what I am saying with examples and have found myself having to put in ugly inverted commas.</p>
<p>The difficulty I have is that (i) we often write things like <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=x%2B6%3D15%5Cimplies+x%3D9&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='x+6=15&#92;implies x=9' title='x+6=15&#92;implies x=9' class='latex' /> and (ii) we read the symbol &#8220;<img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5Cimplies&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;implies' title='&#92;implies' class='latex' />&#8221; as &#8220;implies&#8221;. I see that the Wikipedia article is quite careful about this and says that the symbol means if &#8230; then. </p>
<p>Another thing is that we happily write <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=P%5Cimplies+Q&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='P&#92;implies Q' title='P&#92;implies Q' class='latex' /> when <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=P&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='P' title='P' class='latex' /> and <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=Q&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='Q' title='Q' class='latex' /> are unknown statements. Clearly we don&#8217;t mean these as <em>names</em> of statements, or we wouldn&#8217;t be able to say <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=P%5Cwedge+Q.&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='P&#92;wedge Q.' title='P&#92;wedge Q.' class='latex' /> And yet most people (I think) read <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=P%5Cimplies+Q&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='P&#92;implies Q' title='P&#92;implies Q' class='latex' /> as &#8220;P implies Q&#8221;.</p>
<p>Anyhow, thanks for the comment. As you suspected, pedantic objections are welcome. I now have to think how to strike the right balance between getting everything correct and being intelligible. What I really care about is that people should be able to do things like negating implications, so I don&#8217;t want to scare people off with subtle distinctions. But I&#8217;d much rather be accurate than inaccurate. I&#8217;ve got some rewriting to do before I put up my next post &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel J. Hill</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2011/09/25/basic-logic-connectives-and-and-or/#comment-12090</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Daniel J. Hill]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Sep 2011 18:54:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=3172#comment-12090</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m afraid that this will seem very pedantic -- but, then again, I think you may appreciate pedantry. I don&#039;t think it&#039;s right to say that `implies&#039; is a connective, I am afraid. The word `implies&#039; is written between names of statements or between the name of a set of statements and the name of a statement: `the Axiom of Choice implies Zorn&#039;s Lemma&#039;, `Peano&#039;s Axioms imply Fermat&#039;s Last Theorem&#039;. But `implies&#039; is not a connective here, but a dyadic relational term. Connectives are written between statements, not names of statements, so what we want is `if . . . then&#039; or `only if&#039;: `if the Axiom of Choice is true then Zorn&#039;s Lemma holds&#039;, `Peano&#039;s Axioms are all true only if Fermat&#039;s Last Theorem is correct&#039;. Quine chastises Bertrand Russell for this mistake, and it does have implications (if you&#039;ll pardon the weak joke).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m afraid that this will seem very pedantic &#8212; but, then again, I think you may appreciate pedantry. I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s right to say that `implies&#8217; is a connective, I am afraid. The word `implies&#8217; is written between names of statements or between the name of a set of statements and the name of a statement: `the Axiom of Choice implies Zorn&#8217;s Lemma&#8217;, `Peano&#8217;s Axioms imply Fermat&#8217;s Last Theorem&#8217;. But `implies&#8217; is not a connective here, but a dyadic relational term. Connectives are written between statements, not names of statements, so what we want is `if . . . then&#8217; or `only if&#8217;: `if the Axiom of Choice is true then Zorn&#8217;s Lemma holds&#8217;, `Peano&#8217;s Axioms are all true only if Fermat&#8217;s Last Theorem is correct&#8217;. Quine chastises Bertrand Russell for this mistake, and it does have implications (if you&#8217;ll pardon the weak joke).</p>
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		<title>By: A. Cooper</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2011/09/25/basic-logic-connectives-and-and-or/#comment-12089</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[A. Cooper]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Sep 2011 17:52:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=3172#comment-12089</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[An interesting point from the field of linguistics: while most people intuitively feel that ordinary-language &quot;or&quot; is exclusive in meaning, it turns out that almost all semanticists agree it&#039;s *really* inclusive.

The point is that in almost any real-life situation where one uses &quot;or&quot;, the &quot;and&quot; is ruled out for (a term of art in linguistics) pragmatic reasons. For example, &quot;Frank is a cat or a dog&quot; feels exclusive, but only because we know that in real life &quot;Frank is a cat and a dog&quot; is not possible. 

Statements like &quot;London is in England or Paris is in France.&quot; are rejected as ill-formed by most people not because they violate the meaning of &quot;or&quot;, but because they violate the hearer&#039;s expectation that the speaker will have made the most specific (i.e. mathematically strongest) statement possible--here, &quot;London is in England and Paris is in France.&quot; The speaker&#039;s failure to do so upsets the hearer, but again this is a perceived deficiency of the speaker, not of the statement itself.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An interesting point from the field of linguistics: while most people intuitively feel that ordinary-language &#8220;or&#8221; is exclusive in meaning, it turns out that almost all semanticists agree it&#8217;s *really* inclusive.</p>
<p>The point is that in almost any real-life situation where one uses &#8220;or&#8221;, the &#8220;and&#8221; is ruled out for (a term of art in linguistics) pragmatic reasons. For example, &#8220;Frank is a cat or a dog&#8221; feels exclusive, but only because we know that in real life &#8220;Frank is a cat and a dog&#8221; is not possible. </p>
<p>Statements like &#8220;London is in England or Paris is in France.&#8221; are rejected as ill-formed by most people not because they violate the meaning of &#8220;or&#8221;, but because they violate the hearer&#8217;s expectation that the speaker will have made the most specific (i.e. mathematically strongest) statement possible&#8211;here, &#8220;London is in England and Paris is in France.&#8221; The speaker&#8217;s failure to do so upsets the hearer, but again this is a perceived deficiency of the speaker, not of the statement itself.</p>
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		<title>By: Corentin Lena</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2011/09/25/basic-logic-connectives-and-and-or/#comment-12079</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Corentin Lena]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Sep 2011 07:59:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=3172#comment-12079</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There is a way around the difficulty in the example you give. If you think of &quot;collinear&quot; as a three-place relation between points, then &quot;the points A and B and C and D are collinear&quot; can be read as a shorthand for the statement &quot;Collinear(A,B,C) and Collinear(B,C,D)&quot;. I agree that it is not very elegant, and I am not sure that such reductions could always be done.
I would like to thank Prof. Gowers for this great series of posts. I am sure I will find it useful, and I will recommend it to the students I TA (providing they can read English).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is a way around the difficulty in the example you give. If you think of &#8220;collinear&#8221; as a three-place relation between points, then &#8220;the points A and B and C and D are collinear&#8221; can be read as a shorthand for the statement &#8220;Collinear(A,B,C) and Collinear(B,C,D)&#8221;. I agree that it is not very elegant, and I am not sure that such reductions could always be done.<br />
I would like to thank Prof. Gowers for this great series of posts. I am sure I will find it useful, and I will recommend it to the students I TA (providing they can read English).</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2011/09/25/basic-logic-connectives-and-and-or/#comment-12053</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Sep 2011 14:31:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=3172#comment-12053</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[From &#039;all you know about n is that it is a positive integer&#039; then if same for m may remove 1 from the list &#039;1,2,3,5,7,9,11,13,17,19,21, ...&#039;
TDevlin

&lt;em&gt;Thanks -- I&#039;ve clarified that now.&lt;/em&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From &#8216;all you know about n is that it is a positive integer&#8217; then if same for m may remove 1 from the list &#8217;1,2,3,5,7,9,11,13,17,19,21, &#8230;&#8217;<br />
TDevlin</p>
<p><em>Thanks &#8212; I&#8217;ve clarified that now.</em></p>
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		<title>By: Richard Baron</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2011/09/25/basic-logic-connectives-and-and-or/#comment-12048</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Richard Baron]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Sep 2011 22:40:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=3172#comment-12048</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[When I read your final question, about grouping from left to right when we have only + and - in a string, the first thing that came to mind (not as an answer) was Polish and Reverse Polish notation. This must be a after-effect of having been to Casimir Lewy&#039;s logic lectures.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I read your final question, about grouping from left to right when we have only + and &#8211; in a string, the first thing that came to mind (not as an answer) was Polish and Reverse Polish notation. This must be a after-effect of having been to Casimir Lewy&#8217;s logic lectures.</p>
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		<title>By: gowers</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2011/09/25/basic-logic-connectives-and-and-or/#comment-12043</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[gowers]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Sep 2011 16:08:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=3172#comment-12043</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Funnily enough, I had a similar problem when writing an extension to the post above. It seems reasonable to say that $latex P\vee Q$ is true if and only if at least one of P and Q is true. So to explain &quot;or&quot; I actually used the word &quot;and&quot;. Of course, it&#039;s the words &quot;at least one&quot; that are doing most of the work in defining &quot;or&quot;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Funnily enough, I had a similar problem when writing an extension to the post above. It seems reasonable to say that <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=P%5Cvee+Q&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='P&#92;vee Q' title='P&#92;vee Q' class='latex' /> is true if and only if at least one of P and Q is true. So to explain &#8220;or&#8221; I actually used the word &#8220;and&#8221;. Of course, it&#8217;s the words &#8220;at least one&#8221; that are doing most of the work in defining &#8220;or&#8221;.</p>
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