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	<title>Comments on: My pennyworth about Deolalikar</title>
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	<description>Mathematics related discussions</description>
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		<title>By: arnab</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/08/11/my-pennyworth-about-deolalikar/#comment-8322</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[arnab]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Aug 2010 03:41:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=1903#comment-8322</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A beautiful post!  Perhaps, it&#039;s easier to think about the infinitary versions starting from the logical characterizations of these complexity classes?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A beautiful post!  Perhaps, it&#8217;s easier to think about the infinitary versions starting from the logical characterizations of these complexity classes?</p>
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		<title>By: gowers</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/08/11/my-pennyworth-about-deolalikar/#comment-8313</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[gowers]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Aug 2010 06:25:01 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[I meant I couldn&#039;t find a version that I could freely look at ...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I meant I couldn&#8217;t find a version that I could freely look at &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: KWRegan</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/08/11/my-pennyworth-about-deolalikar/#comment-8312</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[KWRegan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Aug 2010 04:05:13 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[One aspect of uniformity is conveyed by Dexter Kozen&#039;s paper &quot;Indexings of Subrecursive Classes&quot;---there&#039;s a reference in comments of &lt;a href=&quot;http://mathoverflow.net/questions/29550/completeness-easiest-hardest-problems&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this MathOverflow item&lt;/a&gt;.  It contains an argument that &quot;If P != NP is provable at all, then it is provable by diagonalization.&quot;  I&#039;ve regarded it as a chicken/egg matter on which I took the opposite side from him, but actually it helped me advance my suggestion (or really reason for agreeing with some others) that Deolalikar&#039;s strategy isn&#039;t really using uniformity.  If it is, and Dexter is right, one feels there should be more tracks of a diagonalization.

Your attempt with infinite graphs might be informed by   	
Attila Máté&#039;s paper &lt;a href=&quot;http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=78941&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Nondeterministic polynomial-time computations and models of arithmetic&lt;/a&gt;.  It cites earlier papers which also examine what happens to formalized polynomial-time computations when extended to nonstandard integers (or nonstandard-other structures), which might give more control than what you sketch above.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One aspect of uniformity is conveyed by Dexter Kozen&#8217;s paper &#8220;Indexings of Subrecursive Classes&#8221;&#8212;there&#8217;s a reference in comments of <a href="http://mathoverflow.net/questions/29550/completeness-easiest-hardest-problems" rel="nofollow">this MathOverflow item</a>.  It contains an argument that &#8220;If P != NP is provable at all, then it is provable by diagonalization.&#8221;  I&#8217;ve regarded it as a chicken/egg matter on which I took the opposite side from him, but actually it helped me advance my suggestion (or really reason for agreeing with some others) that Deolalikar&#8217;s strategy isn&#8217;t really using uniformity.  If it is, and Dexter is right, one feels there should be more tracks of a diagonalization.</p>
<p>Your attempt with infinite graphs might be informed by<br />
Attila Máté&#8217;s paper <a href="http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=78941" rel="nofollow">Nondeterministic polynomial-time computations and models of arithmetic</a>.  It cites earlier papers which also examine what happens to formalized polynomial-time computations when extended to nonstandard integers (or nonstandard-other structures), which might give more control than what you sketch above.</p>
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		<title>By: Albert Atserias</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/08/11/my-pennyworth-about-deolalikar/#comment-8311</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Albert Atserias]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Aug 2010 23:03:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=1903#comment-8311</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As you point out, the analogy between Borel sets and polynomial-time computable sets is appealing but breaks at a few places. But perhaps the analogy between analytic sets and NP is more robust. One reason to think so is that any set in NP, which in the standard definition is the polynomial projection of a polynomial-time decidable set, can also be put as the polynomial projection of a set that can be decided by polynomial-size bounded-depth circuits (in a sense this is a rephrasing of the NP-completeness of the satisfiability problem for Boolean formulas in conjunctive normal form). If you buy this, you might find interesting that Sipser himself gave a purely combinatorial proof that analytic sets are not closed under complement. Here is the paper:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/661291h0w622rr76/]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As you point out, the analogy between Borel sets and polynomial-time computable sets is appealing but breaks at a few places. But perhaps the analogy between analytic sets and NP is more robust. One reason to think so is that any set in NP, which in the standard definition is the polynomial projection of a polynomial-time decidable set, can also be put as the polynomial projection of a set that can be decided by polynomial-size bounded-depth circuits (in a sense this is a rephrasing of the NP-completeness of the satisfiability problem for Boolean formulas in conjunctive normal form). If you buy this, you might find interesting that Sipser himself gave a purely combinatorial proof that analytic sets are not closed under complement. Here is the paper:<br />
<a href="http://www.springerlink.com/content/661291h0w622rr76/" rel="nofollow">http://www.springerlink.com/content/661291h0w622rr76/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Kaveh</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/08/11/my-pennyworth-about-deolalikar/#comment-8310</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kaveh]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Aug 2010 20:48:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=1903#comment-8310</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Here is Sipser&#039;s paper:
http://doi.acm.org/10.1145/800061.808733]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here is Sipser&#8217;s paper:<br />
<a href="http://doi.acm.org/10.1145/800061.808733" rel="nofollow">http://doi.acm.org/10.1145/800061.808733</a></p>
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		<title>By: Cantor</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/08/11/my-pennyworth-about-deolalikar/#comment-8309</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Cantor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Aug 2010 20:46:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=1903#comment-8309</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Circuits can do (much) better than algorithms. Consider the set that contains a binary string x if and only if &#124;x&#124;=n (&#124;x&#124; is the length of x), and the n&#039;th Turing machine (according to some canonical order, say lexicographic, of Turing machines) halts on the empty input. No algorithm can solve the problem of whether a given input x belongs to this set. On the other hand, constant circuits can: the circuit for input length n is the constant 1 if the n&#039;th machine halts and otherwise it is the constant 0.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Circuits can do (much) better than algorithms. Consider the set that contains a binary string x if and only if |x|=n (|x| is the length of x), and the n&#8217;th Turing machine (according to some canonical order, say lexicographic, of Turing machines) halts on the empty input. No algorithm can solve the problem of whether a given input x belongs to this set. On the other hand, constant circuits can: the circuit for input length n is the constant 1 if the n&#8217;th machine halts and otherwise it is the constant 0.</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan O'Donnell</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/08/11/my-pennyworth-about-deolalikar/#comment-8308</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ryan O'Donnell]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Aug 2010 19:40:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=1903#comment-8308</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Tim, regarding your point 2:

Mike Sipser once told me that indeed, thinking about Borel Sets and Descriptive Complexity was what led him to the work in the Furst-Saxe-Sipser paper (which is the precursor to Hastad&#039;s final optimal results).  

He said that his original random restriction arguments were for &quot;infinite depth-2 circuits&quot;, which actually made the analysis easier.  He then managed to convert these to a finite analogue, with &quot;finite vs. infinite fan-in&quot; turning into &quot;bounded vs. unbounded finite fan-in&quot;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tim, regarding your point 2:</p>
<p>Mike Sipser once told me that indeed, thinking about Borel Sets and Descriptive Complexity was what led him to the work in the Furst-Saxe-Sipser paper (which is the precursor to Hastad&#8217;s final optimal results).  </p>
<p>He said that his original random restriction arguments were for &#8220;infinite depth-2 circuits&#8221;, which actually made the analysis easier.  He then managed to convert these to a finite analogue, with &#8220;finite vs. infinite fan-in&#8221; turning into &#8220;bounded vs. unbounded finite fan-in&#8221;.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: none</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/08/11/my-pennyworth-about-deolalikar/#comment-8307</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[none]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Aug 2010 18:48:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=1903#comment-8307</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think Mike Sipser spent some time in the 1980&#039;s on an approach that sounds something like what you&#039;re describing.  He got some nice results out of it but it fell short of separating P from NP.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Mike Sipser spent some time in the 1980&#8242;s on an approach that sounds something like what you&#8217;re describing.  He got some nice results out of it but it fell short of separating P from NP.</p>
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		<title>By: Rahul</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/08/11/my-pennyworth-about-deolalikar/#comment-8306</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rahul]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Aug 2010 15:08:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=1903#comment-8306</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Great post! There are actually a few contexts where non-uniformity helps and we don&#039;t know how to eliminate it. Here are three classes of ways in which it can be used, I&#039;d be interested to hear of others:

(1) To simulate randomness (&quot;Adleman&#039;s trick&quot;). The class BPP of problems solvable in probabilistic polynomial time is in polynomial time with a polynomial amount of advice, but eliminating the advice is one of the major open questions of complexity theory (derandomization). Indeed, eliminating the advice would actually imply lower bounds by results of Kabanets and Impagliazzo.

(2) The census trick: Perhaps the most interesting application of this is to the NE (non-deterministic time 2^O(n)) versus coNE (complement of NE) question, which is a &quot;lifted&quot; version of NP vs coNP:  NE != coNE would imply NP != coNP, but not the other way around. Of course we don&#039;t know if NE = coNE or not, but we know NE is in coNE with n+1 bits of advice (here n is the input length). The trick is to encode the number of strings belonging to your language L at input length n within your advice. Then in coNE, you can guess all the strings that are in L, using the advice to check that you have indeed guessed all such strings, and then accept only those strings which are not in L.

(3) To encode a promise condition: Sometimes advice can be used in dealing with so-called &quot;semantic&quot; classes such as probabilistic polynomial time where the acceptance and rejection criteria are mutually exclusive but not exhaustive. It is not known for example, whether probabilistic quadratic time is more powerful than probabilistic linear time, but this is known if each class is given just 1 bit of advice. Another example here is the result that MA with 1 bit of advice (here MA is NP but with the verification being probabilistic) doesn&#039;t have Boolean circuits of size n^k for any fixed k. Note that the upper bound here uses just 1 bit of non-uniformity while the lower bound is against algorithms with a fixed polynomial number of bits of non-uniformity.

Having said all this, it&#039;s true that we do not know how to take advantage of uniformity in our lower bounds. Indeed, most known ways to do this run up against the relativization barrier.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post! There are actually a few contexts where non-uniformity helps and we don&#8217;t know how to eliminate it. Here are three classes of ways in which it can be used, I&#8217;d be interested to hear of others:</p>
<p>(1) To simulate randomness (&#8220;Adleman&#8217;s trick&#8221;). The class BPP of problems solvable in probabilistic polynomial time is in polynomial time with a polynomial amount of advice, but eliminating the advice is one of the major open questions of complexity theory (derandomization). Indeed, eliminating the advice would actually imply lower bounds by results of Kabanets and Impagliazzo.</p>
<p>(2) The census trick: Perhaps the most interesting application of this is to the NE (non-deterministic time 2^O(n)) versus coNE (complement of NE) question, which is a &#8220;lifted&#8221; version of NP vs coNP:  NE != coNE would imply NP != coNP, but not the other way around. Of course we don&#8217;t know if NE = coNE or not, but we know NE is in coNE with n+1 bits of advice (here n is the input length). The trick is to encode the number of strings belonging to your language L at input length n within your advice. Then in coNE, you can guess all the strings that are in L, using the advice to check that you have indeed guessed all such strings, and then accept only those strings which are not in L.</p>
<p>(3) To encode a promise condition: Sometimes advice can be used in dealing with so-called &#8220;semantic&#8221; classes such as probabilistic polynomial time where the acceptance and rejection criteria are mutually exclusive but not exhaustive. It is not known for example, whether probabilistic quadratic time is more powerful than probabilistic linear time, but this is known if each class is given just 1 bit of advice. Another example here is the result that MA with 1 bit of advice (here MA is NP but with the verification being probabilistic) doesn&#8217;t have Boolean circuits of size n^k for any fixed k. Note that the upper bound here uses just 1 bit of non-uniformity while the lower bound is against algorithms with a fixed polynomial number of bits of non-uniformity.</p>
<p>Having said all this, it&#8217;s true that we do not know how to take advantage of uniformity in our lower bounds. Indeed, most known ways to do this run up against the relativization barrier.</p>
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