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	<title>Comments on: Is the British voting system fair?</title>
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	<description>Mathematics related discussions</description>
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		<title>By: Is AV better than FPTP? &#171; Gowers&#039;s Weblog</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/05/03/is-the-british-voting-system-fair/#comment-10834</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Is AV better than FPTP? &#171; Gowers&#039;s Weblog]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Apr 2011 14:38:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=1651#comment-10834</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] to suppose that AV gives &#8220;more&#8221; votes to supporters of unsuccessful parties. In another post I explained in detail why FPTP does not give equal votes to everybody. To put that slightly better, [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] to suppose that AV gives &#8220;more&#8221; votes to supporters of unsuccessful parties. In another post I explained in detail why FPTP does not give equal votes to everybody. To put that slightly better, [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Frederik Bloggs</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/05/03/is-the-british-voting-system-fair/#comment-9191</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Frederik Bloggs]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Aug 2010 08:56:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=1651#comment-9191</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Austria has been smitten with two major parties (Peoples Party - conservative; Socialist Party) and neither has had an absolute majority in more than 20 years. The result is that they inevitably form a coalition that holds a monstrous majority. This, together with proportional representation results in a system that is far from democratic, and the establishment - with negligible opposition - of extremely inefficient systems.  e.g. there are over 13 separate state health systems, each with highly paid executives and a bureaucracy.

The country  - with some 8 million population - is divided into regions each with its government and severely under-occupied bureaucracy It has an air force with modern fighter planes.  

It is financially convenient to the political class to maintain this incredible situation.

Votes are essentially purchased by offering ever more goodies to the lower income groups and the unemployed, paid for by a highly regressive income tax and other, that reach a maximum of 40% at a low level of income.

There is no escape other than FPTP.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Austria has been smitten with two major parties (Peoples Party &#8211; conservative; Socialist Party) and neither has had an absolute majority in more than 20 years. The result is that they inevitably form a coalition that holds a monstrous majority. This, together with proportional representation results in a system that is far from democratic, and the establishment &#8211; with negligible opposition &#8211; of extremely inefficient systems.  e.g. there are over 13 separate state health systems, each with highly paid executives and a bureaucracy.</p>
<p>The country  &#8211; with some 8 million population &#8211; is divided into regions each with its government and severely under-occupied bureaucracy It has an air force with modern fighter planes.  </p>
<p>It is financially convenient to the political class to maintain this incredible situation.</p>
<p>Votes are essentially purchased by offering ever more goodies to the lower income groups and the unemployed, paid for by a highly regressive income tax and other, that reach a maximum of 40% at a low level of income.</p>
<p>There is no escape other than FPTP.</p>
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		<title>By: Voting and the Harmonic series &#171; From Calculus to Columbia</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/05/03/is-the-british-voting-system-fair/#comment-7743</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Voting and the Harmonic series &#171; From Calculus to Columbia]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 May 2010 18:50:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=1651#comment-7743</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] analysis of which uses the harmonic series. Now, I&#8217;m certainly not the first person to write a blog post applying a simple mathematical model to the British electoral system, but this still seems worth bring to the attention of anyone who cares to read this. We define  [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] analysis of which uses the harmonic series. Now, I&#8217;m certainly not the first person to write a blog post applying a simple mathematical model to the British electoral system, but this still seems worth bring to the attention of anyone who cares to read this. We define  [...]</p>
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		<title>By: 【数学都知道】2010年5月3日 &#171; 科学博客</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/05/03/is-the-british-voting-system-fair/#comment-7677</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[【数学都知道】2010年5月3日 &#171; 科学博客]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 May 2010 02:25:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=1651#comment-7677</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] 数学和选举 Steven Brams 写了一本书&#8220;Mathematics and Democracy&#8221;，就是&#8220;数学和民主&#8221;。如果能用数学的方法来解释一个选举系统，那它应该是公正的吧。2008年美国数学推广月的主题就是&#8220;数学与选举&#8221;(Math and Voting)，美国人弄出了一堆学术论文。英国人也有：&#8220;Is the British voting system fair?&#8221;。在台湾和香港也都有学术研究。在中国这方面似乎根本没有开展研究。中国的选举不需要数学上正确。 [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] 数学和选举 Steven Brams 写了一本书&ldquo;Mathematics and Democracy&rdquo;，就是&ldquo;数学和民主&rdquo;。如果能用数学的方法来解释一个选举系统，那它应该是公正的吧。2008年美国数学推广月的主题就是&ldquo;数学与选举&rdquo;(Math and Voting)，美国人弄出了一堆学术论文。英国人也有：&ldquo;Is the British voting system fair?&rdquo;。在台湾和香港也都有学术研究。在中国这方面似乎根本没有开展研究。中国的选举不需要数学上正确。 [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Would an Alternative Vote make a difference? &#171; Maxwell&#8217;s Demon</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/05/03/is-the-british-voting-system-fair/#comment-7660</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Would an Alternative Vote make a difference? &#171; Maxwell&#8217;s Demon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 May 2010 23:37:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=1651#comment-7660</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] perfect system does not mean that different options are not better or worse. Tim Gowers has given a mathematicians thoughts on how the current system is unfair. In a similar vein the Fabian society pointed out a couple of [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] perfect system does not mean that different options are not better or worse. Tim Gowers has given a mathematicians thoughts on how the current system is unfair. In a similar vein the Fabian society pointed out a couple of [...]</p>
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		<title>By: ogerard</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/05/03/is-the-british-voting-system-fair/#comment-7645</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ogerard]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 May 2010 18:41:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=1651#comment-7645</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You are of course not alone in wondering about ameliorations of voting systems. Among the mathematically oriented mind that studied this in earnest I stumbled recently on the work of Lewis Carroll in this book &quot;A Mathematical Approach to Proportional Representation: Duncan Black on Lewis Carroll&quot;, Kluwer, 1996.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are of course not alone in wondering about ameliorations of voting systems. Among the mathematically oriented mind that studied this in earnest I stumbled recently on the work of Lewis Carroll in this book &#8220;A Mathematical Approach to Proportional Representation: Duncan Black on Lewis Carroll&#8221;, Kluwer, 1996.</p>
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		<title>By: Carnival of Mathematics #65 &#171; Maxwell&#8217;s Demon</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/05/03/is-the-british-voting-system-fair/#comment-7592</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Carnival of Mathematics #65 &#171; Maxwell&#8217;s Demon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 May 2010 17:40:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=1651#comment-7592</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] To finish on a topical note, I was writing this carnival as I watched the British election. With the hung parilament and the discussions now going on the electoral system itself is coming under question. What does a mathematician think of this? Tim Gowers has some interesting comments. [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] To finish on a topical note, I was writing this carnival as I watched the British election. With the hung parilament and the discussions now going on the electoral system itself is coming under question. What does a mathematician think of this? Tim Gowers has some interesting comments. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: polyanon</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/05/03/is-the-british-voting-system-fair/#comment-7569</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[polyanon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 May 2010 17:22:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=1651#comment-7569</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[1. Yet another reference for the empirical, again from Colomer. 
&quot;Political Institutions&quot; 2001. According to this book, as for year 2000 all democratic political systems can be clasified in four classes:
--majority parlamentarism. It is the system prominent in the Commonwealth (UK, Canada, Australia, India...). It includes also Botswana, which is one of the most prosperous African countries, by per capita GDP PPP. 
--proportional parlamentarism. It is the system of continental western europe, except France. Outside Europe it can be found in Japan, South Africa and New Zeeland. 
--presidentialism. It is the system of the Americas. Since the three powers are elected independently (executive, legislative, judicial) it is the most purest democratic model (separation of powers). Outside America it can be found in Namibia, Mali or Philippines and Taiwan.
--semipresidentialism. The difference with Presidentialism is that the assembly nominates the cabinet. It originates in the french system and has been adopted in the last wave of demcratization by Poland, Rumanie and Bulgaria.  
Parlamentarism was clearly an historical compromise within dinastic monarchies and democracy. IMO Semi presidentialism is quite weird (not only because his french origine...). 

2.  &quot;The voting system interacts with the other elements of the political system and with the underlying society in very complicated ways&quot;. 
I see more complex the relations of the political system with social structure (which includes economy). 
Social structure--&gt;Social problems--&gt;Ideologies--&gt;Political Parties--&gt; Party Manifestos--&gt;Elections / Electoral Systems--&gt;Assembly / Government--&gt;Law/public policies--&gt;Desired Changes in social structures. 
IMO the social structure is the key point of the whole cycle.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1. Yet another reference for the empirical, again from Colomer.<br />
&#8220;Political Institutions&#8221; 2001. According to this book, as for year 2000 all democratic political systems can be clasified in four classes:<br />
&#8211;majority parlamentarism. It is the system prominent in the Commonwealth (UK, Canada, Australia, India&#8230;). It includes also Botswana, which is one of the most prosperous African countries, by per capita GDP PPP.<br />
&#8211;proportional parlamentarism. It is the system of continental western europe, except France. Outside Europe it can be found in Japan, South Africa and New Zeeland.<br />
&#8211;presidentialism. It is the system of the Americas. Since the three powers are elected independently (executive, legislative, judicial) it is the most purest democratic model (separation of powers). Outside America it can be found in Namibia, Mali or Philippines and Taiwan.<br />
&#8211;semipresidentialism. The difference with Presidentialism is that the assembly nominates the cabinet. It originates in the french system and has been adopted in the last wave of demcratization by Poland, Rumanie and Bulgaria.<br />
Parlamentarism was clearly an historical compromise within dinastic monarchies and democracy. IMO Semi presidentialism is quite weird (not only because his french origine&#8230;). </p>
<p>2.  &#8220;The voting system interacts with the other elements of the political system and with the underlying society in very complicated ways&#8221;.<br />
I see more complex the relations of the political system with social structure (which includes economy).<br />
Social structure&#8211;&gt;Social problems&#8211;&gt;Ideologies&#8211;&gt;Political Parties&#8211;&gt; Party Manifestos&#8211;&gt;Elections / Electoral Systems&#8211;&gt;Assembly / Government&#8211;&gt;Law/public policies&#8211;&gt;Desired Changes in social structures.<br />
IMO the social structure is the key point of the whole cycle.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/05/03/is-the-british-voting-system-fair/#comment-7566</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 May 2010 15:57:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=1651#comment-7566</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The voting system interacts with the other elements of the political system and with the underlying society in very complicated ways. The Weimar Repubic had proportional representation, but its hard to see how this promoted fairness. At the other extreme, Norway has proportional representation, and seems a model of equity, efficiency and stability. The average case scenario seems closer to Italy, which is probably no fairer than Britain, but less efficient and stable. Intuitively,at least, the Italian scenario becomes more likely as a society becomes more fragmented. Thus I&#039;m skeptical that proportional representation will benefit Britain much.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The voting system interacts with the other elements of the political system and with the underlying society in very complicated ways. The Weimar Repubic had proportional representation, but its hard to see how this promoted fairness. At the other extreme, Norway has proportional representation, and seems a model of equity, efficiency and stability. The average case scenario seems closer to Italy, which is probably no fairer than Britain, but less efficient and stable. Intuitively,at least, the Italian scenario becomes more likely as a society becomes more fragmented. Thus I&#8217;m skeptical that proportional representation will benefit Britain much.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Watson</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/05/03/is-the-british-voting-system-fair/#comment-7561</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Richard Watson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 May 2010 07:10:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=1651#comment-7561</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Mark, I  completely agree, but this can happen in any system, it could happen as a result of today&#039;s election. It doesn&#039;t  seem to make it fairer if this should happen as a result of the skewed system we have than if it happens as a result of a fairer system.

In any case all we are doing is electing local mps. Coalition makes it more likely that a voter has an mp whose party is governing, its more important that people are represented than some arbitrary thing we call a political party.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark, I  completely agree, but this can happen in any system, it could happen as a result of today&#8217;s election. It doesn&#8217;t  seem to make it fairer if this should happen as a result of the skewed system we have than if it happens as a result of a fairer system.</p>
<p>In any case all we are doing is electing local mps. Coalition makes it more likely that a voter has an mp whose party is governing, its more important that people are represented than some arbitrary thing we call a political party.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Bennet</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/05/03/is-the-british-voting-system-fair/#comment-7560</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark Bennet]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 May 2010 06:26:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=1651#comment-7560</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Richard - your latest highlights for me the fact that in a three-way contest it would be possible for the parties to combine forces in such a way that the most popular party was always in opposition.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard &#8211; your latest highlights for me the fact that in a three-way contest it would be possible for the parties to combine forces in such a way that the most popular party was always in opposition.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Watson</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/05/03/is-the-british-voting-system-fair/#comment-7557</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Richard Watson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 May 2010 20:30:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=1651#comment-7557</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think you are right (gowers) that the position of a party relative to the others matters a lot as to whether they can be in a position to deal effectively. Also we must bear in mind that there are quite a lot of &quot;others&quot; and there would be more in a proportional system, therefore there would be more potential entities to be allied with, thereby making it perhaps less likely that a single party could hold the balance and other people to ransom.

Consider the current situation, according to the BBC&#039;s poll of polls at the present time, it could be that the vote is split: Con: 35%, Lab: 29%, LD: 26%,  Others: 10%. With such a spread it would be unlikely for a single party to hold an outright majority of seats on the current system.  The LDs may well have very few seats (much fewer than than their 26% share would suggest) but their large popular vote makes it seem extremely fair to me that they could form a government with Lab, together representing 55% of the voting public.

I think in many ways this is the most interesting election of my adult life.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you are right (gowers) that the position of a party relative to the others matters a lot as to whether they can be in a position to deal effectively. Also we must bear in mind that there are quite a lot of &#8220;others&#8221; and there would be more in a proportional system, therefore there would be more potential entities to be allied with, thereby making it perhaps less likely that a single party could hold the balance and other people to ransom.</p>
<p>Consider the current situation, according to the BBC&#8217;s poll of polls at the present time, it could be that the vote is split: Con: 35%, Lab: 29%, LD: 26%,  Others: 10%. With such a spread it would be unlikely for a single party to hold an outright majority of seats on the current system.  The LDs may well have very few seats (much fewer than than their 26% share would suggest) but their large popular vote makes it seem extremely fair to me that they could form a government with Lab, together representing 55% of the voting public.</p>
<p>I think in many ways this is the most interesting election of my adult life.</p>
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		<title>By: From Calculus to Columbia</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/05/03/is-the-british-voting-system-fair/#comment-7556</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[From Calculus to Columbia]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 May 2010 18:47:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=1651#comment-7556</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sorry about that, got a little ahead of myself there. I had meant to add a &quot;ignore the polotics (much of which is clearly heavily outdated anyway)&quot; caveat. Afterall, this humerous little video does only describe one possible altenative among the many possibilities.

Nonetheless, the graphs near the begining to illustrate how stark the distorting and unfair effects of having a FPTP system are. This was really the main point I was trying to highlight.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry about that, got a little ahead of myself there. I had meant to add a &#8220;ignore the polotics (much of which is clearly heavily outdated anyway)&#8221; caveat. Afterall, this humerous little video does only describe one possible altenative among the many possibilities.</p>
<p>Nonetheless, the graphs near the begining to illustrate how stark the distorting and unfair effects of having a FPTP system are. This was really the main point I was trying to highlight.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/05/03/is-the-british-voting-system-fair/#comment-7555</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 May 2010 18:42:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=1651#comment-7555</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It remains to be seen whether the Lib Dems are in the end any more willing and able to defy the &quot;iron law of oligarchy&quot; than their rivals.

The robustness of abstract models with respect to modifications of their assumptions is an interesting theoretical question. It might also be helpful to construct realistic models of electoral systems. The failure to have, or at least to apply, realistic models seems to have caused certain difficulties in economics lately. It is far from clear to what extent the public policies of, say, Israel, are an artifact of its electoral system, rather than a product of its history, culture and location. More generally, perhaps the number of essentially distinct voting systems is very small under sufficiently realistic assumptions.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It remains to be seen whether the Lib Dems are in the end any more willing and able to defy the &#8220;iron law of oligarchy&#8221; than their rivals.</p>
<p>The robustness of abstract models with respect to modifications of their assumptions is an interesting theoretical question. It might also be helpful to construct realistic models of electoral systems. The failure to have, or at least to apply, realistic models seems to have caused certain difficulties in economics lately. It is far from clear to what extent the public policies of, say, Israel, are an artifact of its electoral system, rather than a product of its history, culture and location. More generally, perhaps the number of essentially distinct voting systems is very small under sufficiently realistic assumptions.</p>
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		<title>By: From Calculus to Columbia</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/05/03/is-the-british-voting-system-fair/#comment-7554</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[From Calculus to Columbia]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 May 2010 18:29:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=1651#comment-7554</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There is nothing new about criticising the British electoral system and its unfairness...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSUKMa1cYHk]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is nothing new about criticising the British electoral system and its unfairness&#8230;</p>
<p><span class='embed-youtube' style='text-align:center; display: block;'><iframe class='youtube-player' type='text/html' width='450' height='284' src='http://www.youtube.com/embed/NSUKMa1cYHk?version=3&#038;rel=1&#038;fs=1&#038;showsearch=0&#038;showinfo=1&#038;iv_load_policy=1&#038;wmode=transparent' frameborder='0'></iframe></span></p>
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		<title>By: Tim van Beek</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/05/03/is-the-british-voting-system-fair/#comment-7550</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tim van Beek]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 May 2010 13:26:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=1651#comment-7550</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;

But this opens up a big can of worms, and in the end one would probably have to have a full multi-party, proportionate system, which I don’t want at all, because then half the time the election doesn’t decide anything (case in point: Iraq). 

&lt;/blockquote&gt;
The Swedish system has already been mentioned, I would like to add that most European, working democracies have a similar system.
Germany&#039;s system is a little more complicated than full multi-party, proportionate, but as a first order approximation that will do. Germany has a 5% barrier for the parliament (a party has to get at least 5% of all votes to get into the parliament at all).
The situation that a small party held two parties hostage was basically the case during the 1960ies and 1970ies, when there were two big parties (social democrats, SPD and conservatives, CDU) and one small (liberals, FDP). Actually the small party overturned the government once by changing sides (that&#039;s how Helmut Kohl became chancellor).
But all in all the system worked quite well.

My point being: If this system works or does not work depends much more on how the people participating handle it, than game theoretic discussions.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote>
<p>But this opens up a big can of worms, and in the end one would probably have to have a full multi-party, proportionate system, which I don’t want at all, because then half the time the election doesn’t decide anything (case in point: Iraq). </p>
</blockquote>
<p>The Swedish system has already been mentioned, I would like to add that most European, working democracies have a similar system.<br />
Germany&#8217;s system is a little more complicated than full multi-party, proportionate, but as a first order approximation that will do. Germany has a 5% barrier for the parliament (a party has to get at least 5% of all votes to get into the parliament at all).<br />
The situation that a small party held two parties hostage was basically the case during the 1960ies and 1970ies, when there were two big parties (social democrats, SPD and conservatives, CDU) and one small (liberals, FDP). Actually the small party overturned the government once by changing sides (that&#8217;s how Helmut Kohl became chancellor).<br />
But all in all the system worked quite well.</p>
<p>My point being: If this system works or does not work depends much more on how the people participating handle it, than game theoretic discussions.</p>
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		<title>By: gowers</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/05/03/is-the-british-voting-system-fair/#comment-7549</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[gowers]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 May 2010 13:06:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=1651#comment-7549</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I was about to make a similar remark before reading yours. Consider the abstract question of why it is that a third party, with fewer seats than the first two, can have an apparently disproportionate influence. At first this seems almost like a contradiction: trivially it cannot harm a party to have more seats. So what is it that gives the Lib Dems an advantage when it comes to forming coalitions? It&#039;s the simple fact that they are more ready to form coalitions because (to oversimplify) they are in the middle. If Labour and the Conservatives were prepared to cooperate, then they could shut out the Lib Dems, so in a sense they are being punished for being extremist and/or uncooperative.

Having said that, I&#039;m not sure that this argument is entirely borne out by experience. For instance, in Israel, some small and very hard-line religious parties appear to have a lot of power.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was about to make a similar remark before reading yours. Consider the abstract question of why it is that a third party, with fewer seats than the first two, can have an apparently disproportionate influence. At first this seems almost like a contradiction: trivially it cannot harm a party to have more seats. So what is it that gives the Lib Dems an advantage when it comes to forming coalitions? It&#8217;s the simple fact that they are more ready to form coalitions because (to oversimplify) they are in the middle. If Labour and the Conservatives were prepared to cooperate, then they could shut out the Lib Dems, so in a sense they are being punished for being extremist and/or uncooperative.</p>
<p>Having said that, I&#8217;m not sure that this argument is entirely borne out by experience. For instance, in Israel, some small and very hard-line religious parties appear to have a lot of power.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Watson</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/05/03/is-the-british-voting-system-fair/#comment-7548</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Richard Watson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 May 2010 11:52:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=1651#comment-7548</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think the small party holding two larger parties to ransom is a red herring.

Let&#039;s assume in the UK you had Labour on 49%, Conservatives on 48% and BNP supposedly &quot;holding the balance&quot;. To suggest that the BNP holds the others to ransom means that Conservative and Labour would much rather work with the BNP than each other. I don&#039;t believe this to be true. 

I think what would happen is that you would get a minority Labour Government who would find a way to engage support from the only slightly weaker Conservatives.  

This might result in a lot of compromises, which could well be a Good Thing. Some things wouldn&#039;t change at all, some things wouldn&#039;t happen. In order to put through legislation people would have to try to come to an agreement. This is also a Good Thing.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the small party holding two larger parties to ransom is a red herring.</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s assume in the UK you had Labour on 49%, Conservatives on 48% and BNP supposedly &#8220;holding the balance&#8221;. To suggest that the BNP holds the others to ransom means that Conservative and Labour would much rather work with the BNP than each other. I don&#8217;t believe this to be true. </p>
<p>I think what would happen is that you would get a minority Labour Government who would find a way to engage support from the only slightly weaker Conservatives.  </p>
<p>This might result in a lot of compromises, which could well be a Good Thing. Some things wouldn&#8217;t change at all, some things wouldn&#8217;t happen. In order to put through legislation people would have to try to come to an agreement. This is also a Good Thing.</p>
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		<title>By: polyanon</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/05/03/is-the-british-voting-system-fair/#comment-7547</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[polyanon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 May 2010 11:40:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=1651#comment-7547</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[1. &quot;The main source of unfairness (and inefficiency) in practice is that despite nominal majority rule many democracies are in fact run as oligarchies that benefit a tiny elite at the expense of the vast majority&quot;.

Together with Duverger´s law, Michels &quot;iron law of oligarchy&quot; is one of the most celebrated of classical sociology. One of the fourth steps in the Clegg liberal democrat manifesto is to try to change this (&quot;A fair deal, by cleaning up politics&quot;).  

2. For those interested in the empirical side of elections and the &quot;evolution of electoral systems across countries i forgot to cite another good source:  

Elections and electoral systems by Dieter Nohlen. 

Here he uses more case analysis than statistical analysis. There is an interesting discussion about the real difference within majority-proportional systems and how to evaluate them.  

3. It seems that british system evolved to a pure relative majority uninominal system gradualy.  Until the 30´s Liberals were the second political force and were supplanted by Labour due to some bad moves regarding the irish issue and probably also due to sociological changes and international environment (cold war). Then in the 50´s the system was closed (relative majority uninominal) and as a result it was impossible for liberals to govern anymore. Now there are new sociological changes (globalisation, green thinking) and i think the liberals has good chance to become the second force again. If the sociological change is robust, this will happen in one election or the other, independently of the electoral system. By reading the Liberal  manifesto it is clear that they are trying to gain territory against the Labour while increasing abstention from conservatives.  

4. IMO, the British system might be unfair but taking into account the multinational character of UK, it is the best possible.  I would not change to a proportional one; i´m not sure about the alternative system.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1. &#8220;The main source of unfairness (and inefficiency) in practice is that despite nominal majority rule many democracies are in fact run as oligarchies that benefit a tiny elite at the expense of the vast majority&#8221;.</p>
<p>Together with Duverger´s law, Michels &#8220;iron law of oligarchy&#8221; is one of the most celebrated of classical sociology. One of the fourth steps in the Clegg liberal democrat manifesto is to try to change this (&#8220;A fair deal, by cleaning up politics&#8221;).  </p>
<p>2. For those interested in the empirical side of elections and the &#8220;evolution of electoral systems across countries i forgot to cite another good source:  </p>
<p>Elections and electoral systems by Dieter Nohlen. </p>
<p>Here he uses more case analysis than statistical analysis. There is an interesting discussion about the real difference within majority-proportional systems and how to evaluate them.  </p>
<p>3. It seems that british system evolved to a pure relative majority uninominal system gradualy.  Until the 30´s Liberals were the second political force and were supplanted by Labour due to some bad moves regarding the irish issue and probably also due to sociological changes and international environment (cold war). Then in the 50´s the system was closed (relative majority uninominal) and as a result it was impossible for liberals to govern anymore. Now there are new sociological changes (globalisation, green thinking) and i think the liberals has good chance to become the second force again. If the sociological change is robust, this will happen in one election or the other, independently of the electoral system. By reading the Liberal  manifesto it is clear that they are trying to gain territory against the Labour while increasing abstention from conservatives.  </p>
<p>4. IMO, the British system might be unfair but taking into account the multinational character of UK, it is the best possible.  I would not change to a proportional one; i´m not sure about the alternative system.</p>
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		<title>By: Mugizi Robert Rwebangira</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/05/03/is-the-british-voting-system-fair/#comment-7540</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mugizi Robert Rwebangira]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 May 2010 23:23:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=1651#comment-7540</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for the references!

So it seems the bottom line is that its not too clear what the impact is and other factors come into play.

I will try and check out some of those references.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the references!</p>
<p>So it seems the bottom line is that its not too clear what the impact is and other factors come into play.</p>
<p>I will try and check out some of those references.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/05/03/is-the-british-voting-system-fair/#comment-7530</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 May 2010 17:54:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=1651#comment-7530</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The main source of unfairness (and inefficiency) in practice is that despite nominal majority rule many democracies are in fact run as oligarchies that benefit a tiny elite at the expense of the vast majority. This seems in part to be because politicians can successfully pretend to represent their constituents while actually representing someone else.To what do the usual models of voting systems depend on assumptions of perfect information, and are there realistic models of voting with imperfect information?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The main source of unfairness (and inefficiency) in practice is that despite nominal majority rule many democracies are in fact run as oligarchies that benefit a tiny elite at the expense of the vast majority. This seems in part to be because politicians can successfully pretend to represent their constituents while actually representing someone else.To what do the usual models of voting systems depend on assumptions of perfect information, and are there realistic models of voting with imperfect information?</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Bennet</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/05/03/is-the-british-voting-system-fair/#comment-7515</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark Bennet]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 May 2010 11:15:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=1651#comment-7515</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The posts on the behaviour of the electorate and how this is influenced by the voting system take us back into game theory. But one factor in this election which is more acute than in previous elections is that the outcome seems more uncertain, and therefore individual voters cannot be so certain as before how their choices will affect outcomes.

For example, someone told me that they were uncertain because LibDem was no longer a safe protest vote - they might get elected.

Someone else quoted a survey which had apparently suggested that if people believed the LibDems could win, they&#039;d get 49% of the vote (unchecked) - so are we in the realm of catastrophe theory? Does it take a &quot;catastrophe&quot; to change a government, or does the ideal voting system give a smooth transition (modelling votes/opinion over time as a dynamic system of some kind)?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The posts on the behaviour of the electorate and how this is influenced by the voting system take us back into game theory. But one factor in this election which is more acute than in previous elections is that the outcome seems more uncertain, and therefore individual voters cannot be so certain as before how their choices will affect outcomes.</p>
<p>For example, someone told me that they were uncertain because LibDem was no longer a safe protest vote &#8211; they might get elected.</p>
<p>Someone else quoted a survey which had apparently suggested that if people believed the LibDems could win, they&#8217;d get 49% of the vote (unchecked) &#8211; so are we in the realm of catastrophe theory? Does it take a &#8220;catastrophe&#8221; to change a government, or does the ideal voting system give a smooth transition (modelling votes/opinion over time as a dynamic system of some kind)?</p>
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		<title>By: gowers</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/05/03/is-the-british-voting-system-fair/#comment-7508</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[gowers]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 May 2010 06:28:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=1651#comment-7508</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Indeed. One of the things that Ryan O&#039;Donnell spotted during the work on the density Hales-Jewett theorem was that the equal-slices distribution (which I referred to above) was the same as Polya&#039;s urn.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Indeed. One of the things that Ryan O&#8217;Donnell spotted during the work on the density Hales-Jewett theorem was that the equal-slices distribution (which I referred to above) was the same as Polya&#8217;s urn.</p>
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		<title>By: A HANGING PARLIAMENT &#171; DUCKPOND</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/05/03/is-the-british-voting-system-fair/#comment-7493</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[A HANGING PARLIAMENT &#171; DUCKPOND]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 May 2010 02:21:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=1651#comment-7493</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Gower&#8217;s Weblog has a mathematics related review of FPTP and PR. [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Gower&#8217;s Weblog has a mathematics related review of FPTP and PR. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Ori</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/05/03/is-the-british-voting-system-fair/#comment-7489</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ori]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 May 2010 01:09:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=1651#comment-7489</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In the situation you described just before the conclusions (p is distributed uniformly in [0,1], etc.) the probability that your vote will decide the election is *exactly* 1/N. This model is exactly equivalent to Polya&#039;s Urn.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the situation you described just before the conclusions (p is distributed uniformly in [0,1], etc.) the probability that your vote will decide the election is *exactly* 1/N. This model is exactly equivalent to Polya&#8217;s Urn.</p>
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