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	<title>Comments on: EDP11 &#8212; the search continues</title>
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	<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/03/07/edp11-the-search-continues/</link>
	<description>Mathematics related discussions</description>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Klas Markström</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/03/07/edp11-the-search-continues/#comment-6688</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Klas Markström]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Mar 2010 10:46:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=1561#comment-6688</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[We should continue this thread in EDP12 instead of here.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We should continue this thread in EDP12 instead of here.</p>
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		<title>By: Klas Markström</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/03/07/edp11-the-search-continues/#comment-6686</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Klas Markström]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Mar 2010 10:23:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=1561#comment-6686</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Moses, you might want to try GNUs lp-solver from the glpk-package. That solver has an option which makes it solve a linear program using exact arithmetic. This slows the  solver down a lot but it might give some interesting information. for small n at least.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Moses, you might want to try GNUs lp-solver from the glpk-package. That solver has an option which makes it solve a linear program using exact arithmetic. This slows the  solver down a lot but it might give some interesting information. for small n at least.</p>
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		<title>By: gowers</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/03/07/edp11-the-search-continues/#comment-6685</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[gowers]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Mar 2010 10:04:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=1561#comment-6685</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I have a small presentational suggestion, which is that if the numbers are in fact numbers with small denominators, then it might be nice to present them as such rather than as decimals.

I also like the idea of presenting both $latex P\otimes Q$ and $latex Q\otimes P$. I find that when trying to understand what is going on in a particular representation it is slightly inconvenient to have only half of the off-diagonal coefficients displayed.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a small presentational suggestion, which is that if the numbers are in fact numbers with small denominators, then it might be nice to present them as such rather than as decimals.</p>
<p>I also like the idea of presenting both <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=P%5Cotimes+Q&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='P&#92;otimes Q' title='P&#92;otimes Q' class='latex' /> and <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=Q%5Cotimes+P&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='Q&#92;otimes P' title='Q&#92;otimes P' class='latex' />. I find that when trying to understand what is going on in a particular representation it is slightly inconvenient to have only half of the off-diagonal coefficients displayed.</p>
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		<title>By: Moses Charikar</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/03/07/edp11-the-search-continues/#comment-6682</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Moses Charikar]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Mar 2010 09:10:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=1561#comment-6682</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Klas, I have put up solutions for 30, 40 and 60. I presume the extremely small values can be set to zero and still yield an optimal solution, but I am not sure about this. I don&#039;t know of a good way to force the LP solver to not generate such small values. I decreased the error tolerance of the solver from 1e-6 to 1e-8. That may help. Other than that, one would have to examine the solution and resolve the problem with new constraints setting extremely small values to 0 explicitly. It&#039;s possible to automate this process, but it will require some work.

BTW, there are some small values in the solutions with a double negative sign --. They should be positive. In fact here the solver returned a very small negative value for a variable that was supposed to be non-negative, so this is a tolerance issue.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Klas, I have put up solutions for 30, 40 and 60. I presume the extremely small values can be set to zero and still yield an optimal solution, but I am not sure about this. I don&#8217;t know of a good way to force the LP solver to not generate such small values. I decreased the error tolerance of the solver from 1e-6 to 1e-8. That may help. Other than that, one would have to examine the solution and resolve the problem with new constraints setting extremely small values to 0 explicitly. It&#8217;s possible to automate this process, but it will require some work.</p>
<p>BTW, there are some small values in the solutions with a double negative sign &#8211;. They should be positive. In fact here the solver returned a very small negative value for a variable that was supposed to be non-negative, so this is a tolerance issue.</p>
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		<title>By: Klas Markström</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/03/07/edp11-the-search-continues/#comment-6680</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Klas Markström]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Mar 2010 08:37:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=1561#comment-6680</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Moses, I have two suggestions. 
1. Could you also try some additional small sizes, say n=30, 40, 60?

2. There are some values which are quite small for m=50,100, and fairly small for several other values of n, e.g. d7 and d17. Could these values actually be set to exactly 0 and still give an optimal solution for all n?

Once some analysis of the solutions at hand has been done I&#039;d be happy to run some larger cases as well.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Moses, I have two suggestions.<br />
1. Could you also try some additional small sizes, say n=30, 40, 60?</p>
<p>2. There are some values which are quite small for m=50,100, and fairly small for several other values of n, e.g. d7 and d17. Could these values actually be set to exactly 0 and still give an optimal solution for all n?</p>
<p>Once some analysis of the solutions at hand has been done I&#8217;d be happy to run some larger cases as well.</p>
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		<title>By: Moses Charikar</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/03/07/edp11-the-search-continues/#comment-6678</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Moses Charikar]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Mar 2010 07:13:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=1561#comment-6678</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes, I thought this might be a source of confusion. Perhaps I should have printed out all pairs of HAPs that are used in the convex combination explicitly.

The solution for 100 is finally done - the LP solver took almost 23 hours and more than 170,000 iterations to solve the problem. I&#039;m not going to be able to solve any larger problems on my machine unless we restrict the problem somehow.
The data for 100 is here:
http://webspace.princeton.edu/users/moses/EDP/try-lp/]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I thought this might be a source of confusion. Perhaps I should have printed out all pairs of HAPs that are used in the convex combination explicitly.</p>
<p>The solution for 100 is finally done &#8211; the LP solver took almost 23 hours and more than 170,000 iterations to solve the problem. I&#8217;m not going to be able to solve any larger problems on my machine unless we restrict the problem somehow.<br />
The data for 100 is here:<br />
<a href="http://webspace.princeton.edu/users/moses/EDP/try-lp/" rel="nofollow">http://webspace.princeton.edu/users/moses/EDP/try-lp/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Alec Edgington</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/03/07/edp11-the-search-continues/#comment-6672</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Alec Edgington]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Mar 2010 13:37:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=1561#comment-6672</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ah -- I think I see my mistake. The $latex (1,3) (1,3)$ term doesn&#039;t get added to its transpose!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah &#8212; I think I see my mistake. The <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%281%2C3%29+%281%2C3%29&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='(1,3) (1,3)' title='(1,3) (1,3)' class='latex' /> term doesn&#8217;t get added to its transpose!</p>
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		<title>By: Alec Edgington</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/03/07/edp11-the-search-continues/#comment-6671</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Alec Edgington]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Mar 2010 13:34:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=1561#comment-6671</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Moses, I&#039;m a little confused by these numbers. Looking at the data for $latex n=6$, I see that the $latex (1,1)$ diagonal entry is nonzero. But the only contributions to this are from matrices of the form $latex P_{1,k_1} \otimes P_{1,k_2}$; the only such terms here are $latex (1,2) (1,4)$ and $latex (1,3) (1,3)$ (and their transposes, which you&#039;ve constrained to have the same coefficients); and these two terms have equal and opposite coefficients, so should cancel out. What have I missed?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Moses, I&#8217;m a little confused by these numbers. Looking at the data for <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=n%3D6&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='n=6' title='n=6' class='latex' />, I see that the <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%281%2C1%29&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='(1,1)' title='(1,1)' class='latex' /> diagonal entry is nonzero. But the only contributions to this are from matrices of the form <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=P_%7B1%2Ck_1%7D+%5Cotimes+P_%7B1%2Ck_2%7D&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='P_{1,k_1} &#92;otimes P_{1,k_2}' title='P_{1,k_1} &#92;otimes P_{1,k_2}' class='latex' />; the only such terms here are <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%281%2C2%29+%281%2C4%29&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='(1,2) (1,4)' title='(1,2) (1,4)' class='latex' /> and <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%281%2C3%29+%281%2C3%29&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='(1,3) (1,3)' title='(1,3) (1,3)' class='latex' /> (and their transposes, which you&#8217;ve constrained to have the same coefficients); and these two terms have equal and opposite coefficients, so should cancel out. What have I missed?</p>
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		<title>By: Moses Charikar</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/03/07/edp11-the-search-continues/#comment-6669</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Moses Charikar]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Mar 2010 08:23:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=1561#comment-6669</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes, at some point initially, I had considered imposing these multiplicative constraints in the SDP. With these constraints in place, the discrepancy of any HAP is equal to the discrepancy of the 1-HAP of the same length. Eventually, I did not pursue this because I felt the large number of constraints would make it difficult for SDP solvers to solve the problem for large $latex n$. It is possible that the SDP solutions are &quot;nicer&quot; with these constraints. Another interesting thing to check would be whether the optimal SDP solutions (without multiplicativity constraints) are in fact &quot;multiplicative&quot;, i.e. $latex \langle v_{di},v_{dj}\rangle = \langle v_i,v_j\rangle$.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, at some point initially, I had considered imposing these multiplicative constraints in the SDP. With these constraints in place, the discrepancy of any HAP is equal to the discrepancy of the 1-HAP of the same length. Eventually, I did not pursue this because I felt the large number of constraints would make it difficult for SDP solvers to solve the problem for large <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=n&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='n' title='n' class='latex' />. It is possible that the SDP solutions are &#8220;nicer&#8221; with these constraints. Another interesting thing to check would be whether the optimal SDP solutions (without multiplicativity constraints) are in fact &#8220;multiplicative&#8221;, i.e. <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5Clangle+v_%7Bdi%7D%2Cv_%7Bdj%7D%5Crangle+%3D+%5Clangle+v_i%2Cv_j%5Crangle&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;langle v_{di},v_{dj}&#92;rangle = &#92;langle v_i,v_j&#92;rangle' title='&#92;langle v_{di},v_{dj}&#92;rangle = &#92;langle v_i,v_j&#92;rangle' class='latex' />.</p>
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		<title>By: Moses Charikar</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/03/07/edp11-the-search-continues/#comment-6668</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Moses Charikar]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Mar 2010 08:04:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=1561#comment-6668</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I have some initial LP solutions for this problem. The optimum values for small values of $latex n$ are as follows (an optimum value of p/q indicates that the convex combination involves multiples of 1/q):
6:  4/13
10: 25/81
12: 7/20
16: 40/110
18: 20/50
50: 0.422825
The solutions produced by the LP solver are here: 
http://webspace.princeton.edu/users/moses/EDP/try-lp/
(I am not sure that the optimum solutions are unique).
The values $latex d_i$ give the value of the $latex (i,i)$ diagonal entry of the matrix (off-diagonal entries are zero) that the LP expresses as a convex combination of $latex \pm P_{d_1,k1} \otimes P_{d_2,k2}$. Here $latex P_{d,k}$ is the characteristic vector of the HAP with common difference $latex d$ and length $latex k$.
The lines of the form $latex (d1,k1)(d2,k2)$ give the coefficient of $latex P_{d_1,k_1} \otimes P_{d_2,k_2}$. I impose the condition (w.l.o.g.) that the coefficient of $latex P_{d_1,k_1} \otimes P_{d_2,k_2}$ is equal to the coefficient of $latex P_{d_2,k_2} \otimes P_{d_1,k_1}$ and output only one of them. Zero coefficients are not output and there are many of them (less than 2% of the coefficients for the $latex n=50$ instance are non-zero).

The solver is currently working on $latex n=100$. It&#039;s taking up about 3G of memory for this instance, so it is unlikely that I can solve bigger sizes, but we should be able to get solutions for larger $latex n$ by running an LP solver on a parallel cluster.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have some initial LP solutions for this problem. The optimum values for small values of <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=n&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='n' title='n' class='latex' /> are as follows (an optimum value of p/q indicates that the convex combination involves multiples of 1/q):<br />
6:  4/13<br />
10: 25/81<br />
12: 7/20<br />
16: 40/110<br />
18: 20/50<br />
50: 0.422825<br />
The solutions produced by the LP solver are here:<br />
<a href="http://webspace.princeton.edu/users/moses/EDP/try-lp/" rel="nofollow">http://webspace.princeton.edu/users/moses/EDP/try-lp/</a><br />
(I am not sure that the optimum solutions are unique).<br />
The values <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=d_i&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='d_i' title='d_i' class='latex' /> give the value of the <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%28i%2Ci%29&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='(i,i)' title='(i,i)' class='latex' /> diagonal entry of the matrix (off-diagonal entries are zero) that the LP expresses as a convex combination of <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5Cpm+P_%7Bd_1%2Ck1%7D+%5Cotimes+P_%7Bd_2%2Ck2%7D&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;pm P_{d_1,k1} &#92;otimes P_{d_2,k2}' title='&#92;pm P_{d_1,k1} &#92;otimes P_{d_2,k2}' class='latex' />. Here <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=P_%7Bd%2Ck%7D&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='P_{d,k}' title='P_{d,k}' class='latex' /> is the characteristic vector of the HAP with common difference <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=d&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='d' title='d' class='latex' /> and length <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=k&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='k' title='k' class='latex' />.<br />
The lines of the form <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%28d1%2Ck1%29%28d2%2Ck2%29&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='(d1,k1)(d2,k2)' title='(d1,k1)(d2,k2)' class='latex' /> give the coefficient of <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=P_%7Bd_1%2Ck_1%7D+%5Cotimes+P_%7Bd_2%2Ck_2%7D&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='P_{d_1,k_1} &#92;otimes P_{d_2,k_2}' title='P_{d_1,k_1} &#92;otimes P_{d_2,k_2}' class='latex' />. I impose the condition (w.l.o.g.) that the coefficient of <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=P_%7Bd_1%2Ck_1%7D+%5Cotimes+P_%7Bd_2%2Ck_2%7D&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='P_{d_1,k_1} &#92;otimes P_{d_2,k_2}' title='P_{d_1,k_1} &#92;otimes P_{d_2,k_2}' class='latex' /> is equal to the coefficient of <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=P_%7Bd_2%2Ck_2%7D+%5Cotimes+P_%7Bd_1%2Ck_1%7D&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='P_{d_2,k_2} &#92;otimes P_{d_1,k_1}' title='P_{d_2,k_2} &#92;otimes P_{d_1,k_1}' class='latex' /> and output only one of them. Zero coefficients are not output and there are many of them (less than 2% of the coefficients for the <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=n%3D50&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='n=50' title='n=50' class='latex' /> instance are non-zero).</p>
<p>The solver is currently working on <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=n%3D100&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='n=100' title='n=100' class='latex' />. It&#8217;s taking up about 3G of memory for this instance, so it is unlikely that I can solve bigger sizes, but we should be able to get solutions for larger <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=n&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='n' title='n' class='latex' /> by running an LP solver on a parallel cluster.</p>
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		<title>By: gowers</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/03/07/edp11-the-search-continues/#comment-6666</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[gowers]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Mar 2010 22:17:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=1561#comment-6666</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Apropos nothing much, here is a small observation: the notion of multiplicativity can be generalized to the vector-valued setting even when there is no given algebra structure on the vectors. In the $latex \pm 1$ case we can characterize multiplicativity by saying that the angle between $latex x_i$ and $latex x_j$ (which is always either 0 or $latex \pi$) depends only on $latex i/j$. This way of phrasing the definition makes just as good sense for unit vectors in a Euclidean space. This may be relevant to Kristal&#039;s proposal to restrict the SDP approach to multiplicative functions. 

Another way of thinking about the multiplicativity condition is to say that the map $latex S_d:x_i\mapsto x_{di}$ is an isometric embedding for every $latex d$.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Apropos nothing much, here is a small observation: the notion of multiplicativity can be generalized to the vector-valued setting even when there is no given algebra structure on the vectors. In the <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5Cpm+1&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;pm 1' title='&#92;pm 1' class='latex' /> case we can characterize multiplicativity by saying that the angle between <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=x_i&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='x_i' title='x_i' class='latex' /> and <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=x_j&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='x_j' title='x_j' class='latex' /> (which is always either 0 or <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5Cpi&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;pi' title='&#92;pi' class='latex' />) depends only on <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=i%2Fj&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='i/j' title='i/j' class='latex' />. This way of phrasing the definition makes just as good sense for unit vectors in a Euclidean space. This may be relevant to Kristal&#8217;s proposal to restrict the SDP approach to multiplicative functions. </p>
<p>Another way of thinking about the multiplicativity condition is to say that the map <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=S_d%3Ax_i%5Cmapsto+x_%7Bdi%7D&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='S_d:x_i&#92;mapsto x_{di}' title='S_d:x_i&#92;mapsto x_{di}' class='latex' /> is an isometric embedding for every <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=d&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='d' title='d' class='latex' />.</p>
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		<title>By: Kristal Cantwell</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/03/07/edp11-the-search-continues/#comment-6665</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kristal Cantwell]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Mar 2010 21:14:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=1561#comment-6665</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If you are looking at a multiplicative function then instead of looking at the  the quadratic form

\displaystyle \sum_{k,d}c_{k,d}&#124;x_d+x_{2d}+\dots+x_{kd}&#124;^2-\sum_ib_ix_i^2 look
at the following

\displaystyle \sum_{k,d}c_{k,d}&#124;x_1+x_{2}+\dots+x_{k}&#124;^2-\sum_ib_ix_i^2 

the idea is to try to use the information that the function is multiplicative to get a simplification as it looks like the number of different types of sums that are squared depends only on the number of terms and that might be useful.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you are looking at a multiplicative function then instead of looking at the  the quadratic form</p>
<p>\displaystyle \sum_{k,d}c_{k,d}|x_d+x_{2d}+\dots+x_{kd}|^2-\sum_ib_ix_i^2 look<br />
at the following</p>
<p>\displaystyle \sum_{k,d}c_{k,d}|x_1+x_{2}+\dots+x_{k}|^2-\sum_ib_ix_i^2 </p>
<p>the idea is to try to use the information that the function is multiplicative to get a simplification as it looks like the number of different types of sums that are squared depends only on the number of terms and that might be useful.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Kristal Cantwell</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/03/07/edp11-the-search-continues/#comment-6664</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kristal Cantwell]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Mar 2010 21:03:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=1561#comment-6664</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I have been looking at one problem that came up a while back that is the following: There are two players one is trying to force a large discrepancy the other is trying to stop it. The players pick primes and assign signs to them and the discrepancy is of the multiplicative function which is determined by the signs of the primes.I have an idea for showing a that the large discrepancy can be forced in some cases. 

Let me describe the winning strategy if the idea works.
The player trying to force the discrepancy chooses
the lowest available prime and sets it positive.

Let me look at a specific case and show how the discrepancy can be forced. I believe that this idea can be extended to further cases.

The case is that the player who is trying to force the discrepancy moves
first and chooses 1/2 then for some reason the other player does not choose 1/3 so the first player chooses that and both primes are set to 1.

The first step of the proof is to group the prime
factors in pairs. Because of the way signs are assigned
they can be arranged in pairs. The first of these pairs will
be two and something. Now we can show that the
constributions made by all numbers having factors nontrivially
in a in any of the later pairs can be ignored. We note
that for any pair p,q and multiple rx, with x having factors only
in p and q we can order p pr qr p^2r etc in a way that the series
is alternating and starting with a positive number this will result
in a positive or zero discrepancy to the total discrepancy so if
the factors having factors in the first pair contributes k
to the discrepancy then we will be done if we can make k arbitrarily
large. So the idea is to ignore everything except the first pair. Now we can make the first pair consist of 2 and 7. And then if we look at these we can see the discrepancy will be high as we can pair powers of consecutive powers of 7 which will have different signs and which will increase the discrepancy. Anyway that is roughly the idea that I am looking at now.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have been looking at one problem that came up a while back that is the following: There are two players one is trying to force a large discrepancy the other is trying to stop it. The players pick primes and assign signs to them and the discrepancy is of the multiplicative function which is determined by the signs of the primes.I have an idea for showing a that the large discrepancy can be forced in some cases. </p>
<p>Let me describe the winning strategy if the idea works.<br />
The player trying to force the discrepancy chooses<br />
the lowest available prime and sets it positive.</p>
<p>Let me look at a specific case and show how the discrepancy can be forced. I believe that this idea can be extended to further cases.</p>
<p>The case is that the player who is trying to force the discrepancy moves<br />
first and chooses 1/2 then for some reason the other player does not choose 1/3 so the first player chooses that and both primes are set to 1.</p>
<p>The first step of the proof is to group the prime<br />
factors in pairs. Because of the way signs are assigned<br />
they can be arranged in pairs. The first of these pairs will<br />
be two and something. Now we can show that the<br />
constributions made by all numbers having factors nontrivially<br />
in a in any of the later pairs can be ignored. We note<br />
that for any pair p,q and multiple rx, with x having factors only<br />
in p and q we can order p pr qr p^2r etc in a way that the series<br />
is alternating and starting with a positive number this will result<br />
in a positive or zero discrepancy to the total discrepancy so if<br />
the factors having factors in the first pair contributes k<br />
to the discrepancy then we will be done if we can make k arbitrarily<br />
large. So the idea is to ignore everything except the first pair. Now we can make the first pair consist of 2 and 7. And then if we look at these we can see the discrepancy will be high as we can pair powers of consecutive powers of 7 which will have different signs and which will increase the discrepancy. Anyway that is roughly the idea that I am looking at now.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: gowers</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/03/07/edp11-the-search-continues/#comment-6663</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[gowers]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Mar 2010 16:09:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=1561#comment-6663</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ah yes -- I don&#039;t know why I was blind to this simpler formulation, which will make it easier to think about. And of course, I&#039;d be very interested to see what the best decomposition is for various values of $latex n$. I think even a moderate-sized $latex n$ such as 250 could be quite informative. 

Since the number of comments on this post is approaching 100, I am in the process of writing another post. I am using this opportunity to try to formulate this representation-of-diagonals approach as clearly as possible, and I will also mention there a few thoughts I have about how one might actually go about finding a good representation. But these thoughts could well need to be refined a great deal in the face of the experimental evidence. (Another possibility is that the optimal solution involves an apparently magical cancellation that leaves one none the wiser about how to approach the problem theoretically, but I hope it will give some useful clues.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah yes &#8212; I don&#8217;t know why I was blind to this simpler formulation, which will make it easier to think about. And of course, I&#8217;d be very interested to see what the best decomposition is for various values of <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=n&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='n' title='n' class='latex' />. I think even a moderate-sized <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=n&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='n' title='n' class='latex' /> such as 250 could be quite informative. </p>
<p>Since the number of comments on this post is approaching 100, I am in the process of writing another post. I am using this opportunity to try to formulate this representation-of-diagonals approach as clearly as possible, and I will also mention there a few thoughts I have about how one might actually go about finding a good representation. But these thoughts could well need to be refined a great deal in the face of the experimental evidence. (Another possibility is that the optimal solution involves an apparently magical cancellation that leaves one none the wiser about how to approach the problem theoretically, but I hope it will give some useful clues.)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Moses Charikar</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/03/07/edp11-the-search-continues/#comment-6662</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Moses Charikar]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Mar 2010 15:02:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=1561#comment-6662</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Very interesting question and I agree that getting a diagonal matrix seems easier to do than proving that some matrix is positive semidefinite. Tim, it looks like all you need for your proof to work is to be able to express a diagonal matrix as a convex combination of matrices of the form $latex P_i \otimes P_j$ and $latex - P_i \otimes P_j$ where $latex P_i,P_j$ are characteristic vectors of HAPs. If this is correct, this is easier to think about than taking convex combinations of test vectors. Also, the best such convex combination (that maximizes the sum of diagonal entries for an $latex n \times n$ matrix can be found by linear programming. The problem involves roughly $latex n^2 \log^2 n$ variables (corresponding to all pairs of HAPs) and roughly $latex n^2$ constraints (corresponding to the entries of the $latex n \times n$ matrix).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very interesting question and I agree that getting a diagonal matrix seems easier to do than proving that some matrix is positive semidefinite. Tim, it looks like all you need for your proof to work is to be able to express a diagonal matrix as a convex combination of matrices of the form <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=P_i+%5Cotimes+P_j&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='P_i &#92;otimes P_j' title='P_i &#92;otimes P_j' class='latex' /> and <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=-+P_i+%5Cotimes+P_j&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='- P_i &#92;otimes P_j' title='- P_i &#92;otimes P_j' class='latex' /> where <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=P_i%2CP_j&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='P_i,P_j' title='P_i,P_j' class='latex' /> are characteristic vectors of HAPs. If this is correct, this is easier to think about than taking convex combinations of test vectors. Also, the best such convex combination (that maximizes the sum of diagonal entries for an <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=n+%5Ctimes+n&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='n &#92;times n' title='n &#92;times n' class='latex' /> matrix can be found by linear programming. The problem involves roughly <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=n%5E2+%5Clog%5E2+n&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='n^2 &#92;log^2 n' title='n^2 &#92;log^2 n' class='latex' /> variables (corresponding to all pairs of HAPs) and roughly <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=n%5E2&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='n^2' title='n^2' class='latex' /> constraints (corresponding to the entries of the <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=n+%5Ctimes+n&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='n &#92;times n' title='n &#92;times n' class='latex' /> matrix).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: gowers</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/03/07/edp11-the-search-continues/#comment-6661</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[gowers]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Mar 2010 11:00:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=1561#comment-6661</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If it turns out to be correct that the representation-of-diagonals statement is equivalent to the non-symmetric vector-valued EDP, and if we can&#039;t find a counterexample to the latter statement (and a very brief think about it in the real-valued case makes me think it has a good chance of being true), then I would like to argue that the representation-of-diagonals approach (rather than its weakening where you allow the difference to be positive semidefinite) is a good thing to think about. I have various reasons for this.

1. Proving that numbers are zero is easier than proving that matrices are positive semidefinite.

2. If we try to represent a diagonal matrix, we don&#039;t have to decide in advance what that matrix should be, so we save ourselves from having to make some huge guess. All we care about is that on average the $latex \ell_2$ norms of the test vectors we use should be unbounded. 

3. Trying to prove a stronger statement is often easier than trying to prove a weaker one, because one&#039;s moves are somehow more forced. (There are counterexamples to this -- consider van der Waerden&#039;s theorem and Szemer&#233;di&#039;s theorem, for instance -- so there is no guarantee that this principle applies in our case, but I have a hunch that it does.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If it turns out to be correct that the representation-of-diagonals statement is equivalent to the non-symmetric vector-valued EDP, and if we can&#8217;t find a counterexample to the latter statement (and a very brief think about it in the real-valued case makes me think it has a good chance of being true), then I would like to argue that the representation-of-diagonals approach (rather than its weakening where you allow the difference to be positive semidefinite) is a good thing to think about. I have various reasons for this.</p>
<p>1. Proving that numbers are zero is easier than proving that matrices are positive semidefinite.</p>
<p>2. If we try to represent a diagonal matrix, we don&#8217;t have to decide in advance what that matrix should be, so we save ourselves from having to make some huge guess. All we care about is that on average the <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5Cell_2&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;ell_2' title='&#92;ell_2' class='latex' /> norms of the test vectors we use should be unbounded. </p>
<p>3. Trying to prove a stronger statement is often easier than trying to prove a weaker one, because one&#8217;s moves are somehow more forced. (There are counterexamples to this &#8212; consider van der Waerden&#8217;s theorem and Szemer&eacute;di&#8217;s theorem, for instance &#8212; so there is no guarantee that this principle applies in our case, but I have a hunch that it does.)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: gowers</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/03/07/edp11-the-search-continues/#comment-6660</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[gowers]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Mar 2010 10:52:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=1561#comment-6660</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Here is an interpretation of the representation-of-diagonals approach, conditional on a linear algebra statement that seems plausible to me but that I have not checked. That statement is that if $latex B$ is any $latex n\times n$ matrix then one can find vectors $latex u_1,\dots,u_n$ and $latex v_1,\dots,v_n$ such that $latex \langle u_i,v_j\rangle=B_{ij}$ for every $latex i,j$. This says I can factor $latex B$ as $latex U^TV$, which starts to look disappointingly trivial as I can take $latex V$ to be any invertible matrix and then take $latex U^T$ to be $latex BV^{-1}$. 

Never mind the fact that it is trivial -- let&#039;s see what it implies. As above, we know that the representation-of-diagonal approach fails if and only if there exists some matrix $latex B$ with 1s down the diagonal such that $latex v^TBv\leq C$ for every test vector $latex v$. Therefore it succeeds if and only if for every matrix $latex B$ with 1s down the diagonal there is a test vector $latex v$ such that $latex v^TBv&gt;C$. As I noted above, that implies the existence of HAPs $latex P$ and $latex Q$ such that $latex &#124;P^TBQ&#124;&gt;C$. (Actually, I forgot the modulus sign earlier, but once it&#039;s there the conclusion is valid.) Now if $latex B_{ij}=\langle u_i,v_j\rangle$, then this tells us that $latex &#124;\langle\sum_{i\in P}u_i,\sum_{j\in Q}v_j\rangle&#124;&gt;C$.

Thus, if the method succeeds, then we get the following apparently stronger version of the vector-valued EDP: let $latex u_1,\dots,u_n$ and $latex v_1,\dots,v_n$ be any two sequences of vectors such that $latex \langle u_i,v_i\rangle=1$ for every $latex i$. Then there exist HAPs $latex P$ and $latex Q$ such that $latex \langle\sum_{i\in P}u_i,\sum_{j\in Q}v_j\rangle&gt; C$ for some $latex C=C(n)$ that tends to infinity with $latex n$. I haven&#039;t thought about whether this statement is likely to be true. If we insist that $latex u_i=v_i$ for each $latex i$ then we recover the usual vector-valued EDP. Note also that the statement is potentially interesting even for real numbers: if we have two sequences $latex (x_n)$ and $latex (y_n)$ such that $latex x_ny_n=1$ for every $latex n$, does it follow that we can find HAPs $latex P$ and $latex Q$ such that the product of $latex \sum_{i\in P}x_i$ and $latex \sum_{j\in Q}y_j$ is unbounded in size?

Is this non-symmetric vector-valued version &lt;em&gt;equivalent&lt;/em&gt; to the representation-of-diagonals statement? I was expecting to have something to check there, but now that I look back I think it&#039;s trivial, since characteristic functions of HAPs are test vectors.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here is an interpretation of the representation-of-diagonals approach, conditional on a linear algebra statement that seems plausible to me but that I have not checked. That statement is that if <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=B&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='B' title='B' class='latex' /> is any <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=n%5Ctimes+n&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='n&#92;times n' title='n&#92;times n' class='latex' /> matrix then one can find vectors <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=u_1%2C%5Cdots%2Cu_n&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='u_1,&#92;dots,u_n' title='u_1,&#92;dots,u_n' class='latex' /> and <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=v_1%2C%5Cdots%2Cv_n&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='v_1,&#92;dots,v_n' title='v_1,&#92;dots,v_n' class='latex' /> such that <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5Clangle+u_i%2Cv_j%5Crangle%3DB_%7Bij%7D&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;langle u_i,v_j&#92;rangle=B_{ij}' title='&#92;langle u_i,v_j&#92;rangle=B_{ij}' class='latex' /> for every <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=i%2Cj&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='i,j' title='i,j' class='latex' />. This says I can factor <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=B&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='B' title='B' class='latex' /> as <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=U%5ETV&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='U^TV' title='U^TV' class='latex' />, which starts to look disappointingly trivial as I can take <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=V&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='V' title='V' class='latex' /> to be any invertible matrix and then take <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=U%5ET&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='U^T' title='U^T' class='latex' /> to be <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=BV%5E%7B-1%7D&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='BV^{-1}' title='BV^{-1}' class='latex' />. </p>
<p>Never mind the fact that it is trivial &#8212; let&#8217;s see what it implies. As above, we know that the representation-of-diagonal approach fails if and only if there exists some matrix <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=B&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='B' title='B' class='latex' /> with 1s down the diagonal such that <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=v%5ETBv%5Cleq+C&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='v^TBv&#92;leq C' title='v^TBv&#92;leq C' class='latex' /> for every test vector <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=v&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='v' title='v' class='latex' />. Therefore it succeeds if and only if for every matrix <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=B&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='B' title='B' class='latex' /> with 1s down the diagonal there is a test vector <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=v&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='v' title='v' class='latex' /> such that <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=v%5ETBv%3EC&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='v^TBv&gt;C' title='v^TBv&gt;C' class='latex' />. As I noted above, that implies the existence of HAPs <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=P&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='P' title='P' class='latex' /> and <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=Q&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='Q' title='Q' class='latex' /> such that <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%7CP%5ETBQ%7C%3EC&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='|P^TBQ|&gt;C' title='|P^TBQ|&gt;C' class='latex' />. (Actually, I forgot the modulus sign earlier, but once it&#8217;s there the conclusion is valid.) Now if <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=B_%7Bij%7D%3D%5Clangle+u_i%2Cv_j%5Crangle&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='B_{ij}=&#92;langle u_i,v_j&#92;rangle' title='B_{ij}=&#92;langle u_i,v_j&#92;rangle' class='latex' />, then this tells us that <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%7C%5Clangle%5Csum_%7Bi%5Cin+P%7Du_i%2C%5Csum_%7Bj%5Cin+Q%7Dv_j%5Crangle%7C%3EC&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='|&#92;langle&#92;sum_{i&#92;in P}u_i,&#92;sum_{j&#92;in Q}v_j&#92;rangle|&gt;C' title='|&#92;langle&#92;sum_{i&#92;in P}u_i,&#92;sum_{j&#92;in Q}v_j&#92;rangle|&gt;C' class='latex' />.</p>
<p>Thus, if the method succeeds, then we get the following apparently stronger version of the vector-valued EDP: let <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=u_1%2C%5Cdots%2Cu_n&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='u_1,&#92;dots,u_n' title='u_1,&#92;dots,u_n' class='latex' /> and <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=v_1%2C%5Cdots%2Cv_n&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='v_1,&#92;dots,v_n' title='v_1,&#92;dots,v_n' class='latex' /> be any two sequences of vectors such that <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5Clangle+u_i%2Cv_i%5Crangle%3D1&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;langle u_i,v_i&#92;rangle=1' title='&#92;langle u_i,v_i&#92;rangle=1' class='latex' /> for every <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=i&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='i' title='i' class='latex' />. Then there exist HAPs <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=P&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='P' title='P' class='latex' /> and <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=Q&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='Q' title='Q' class='latex' /> such that <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5Clangle%5Csum_%7Bi%5Cin+P%7Du_i%2C%5Csum_%7Bj%5Cin+Q%7Dv_j%5Crangle%3E+C&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;langle&#92;sum_{i&#92;in P}u_i,&#92;sum_{j&#92;in Q}v_j&#92;rangle&gt; C' title='&#92;langle&#92;sum_{i&#92;in P}u_i,&#92;sum_{j&#92;in Q}v_j&#92;rangle&gt; C' class='latex' /> for some <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=C%3DC%28n%29&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='C=C(n)' title='C=C(n)' class='latex' /> that tends to infinity with <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=n&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='n' title='n' class='latex' />. I haven&#8217;t thought about whether this statement is likely to be true. If we insist that <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=u_i%3Dv_i&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='u_i=v_i' title='u_i=v_i' class='latex' /> for each <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=i&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='i' title='i' class='latex' /> then we recover the usual vector-valued EDP. Note also that the statement is potentially interesting even for real numbers: if we have two sequences <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%28x_n%29&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='(x_n)' title='(x_n)' class='latex' /> and <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%28y_n%29&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='(y_n)' title='(y_n)' class='latex' /> such that <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=x_ny_n%3D1&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='x_ny_n=1' title='x_ny_n=1' class='latex' /> for every <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=n&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='n' title='n' class='latex' />, does it follow that we can find HAPs <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=P&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='P' title='P' class='latex' /> and <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=Q&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='Q' title='Q' class='latex' /> such that the product of <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5Csum_%7Bi%5Cin+P%7Dx_i&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;sum_{i&#92;in P}x_i' title='&#92;sum_{i&#92;in P}x_i' class='latex' /> and <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5Csum_%7Bj%5Cin+Q%7Dy_j&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;sum_{j&#92;in Q}y_j' title='&#92;sum_{j&#92;in Q}y_j' class='latex' /> is unbounded in size?</p>
<p>Is this non-symmetric vector-valued version <em>equivalent</em> to the representation-of-diagonals statement? I was expecting to have something to check there, but now that I look back I think it&#8217;s trivial, since characteristic functions of HAPs are test vectors.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Klas Markström</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/03/07/edp11-the-search-continues/#comment-6659</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Klas Markström]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Mar 2010 08:01:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=1561#comment-6659</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[No, some of the values in the stubs probably depend on the behaviour at integers larger than 1125.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, some of the values in the stubs probably depend on the behaviour at integers larger than 1125.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Moses Charikar</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/03/07/edp11-the-search-continues/#comment-6658</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Moses Charikar]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Mar 2010 07:23:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=1561#comment-6658</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[To aid my own understanding, let me compare the conditions required for the SDP argument to work and those required for the representation of a diagonal matrix to work:

In order to prove a lower bound of $latex C$ on discrepancy via the SDP argument, we need the following property: for any positive semidefinite matrix $latex B$ with 1&#039;s on the diagonal, there must be a HAP with corresponding characteristic vector $latex B$ such that $latex P^T B P \geq C^2$. This is equivalent to saying that in the vector version of EDP (where elements of the sequence are unit vectors instead of $latex \pm 1$), the square discrepancy of some HAP is at least $latex C^2$. This is by the argument in Tim&#039;s comment above. Since $latex B$ is psd, we can find vectors $latex u_i$ such that $latex B_{ij}=\langle u_i,u_j\rangle$. Then $latex P^T B P = &#124;&#124;\sum_{i \in P} u_i&#124;&#124;_2^2$.

In order to prove a lower bound of $latex C$ on discrepancy via the representation of a diagonal matrix argument, we need the following property: for any matrix $latex B$ with 1&#039;s on the diagonal, there must be a test vector
$latex v$ such that $latex v^T B v \geq C^2$. I don&#039;t think you can assume that $latex B$ is positive semidefinite, and if so, I don&#039;t have a good interpretation for what this condition is saying. 

On the other hand, consider the modification of the representation-of-diagonal argument to allow $latex \sum_i \lambda_i v_i v_i^T - D$ to be positive semidefinite (earlier we insisted that this was 0). For a proof of this kind to succeed, I think you need the following: for any psd matrix $latex B$ with 1&#039;s on the diagonal, there must be a test vector $latex v$ such that $latex v^T B v \geq C^2$. If this is the case, as Tim points out, there exist $latex u_i$ such that $latex B_{ij} = \langle u_i,u_j \rangle$ and the existence of the test vector $latex v$ implies that $latex &#124;&#124;\sum_{i \in P} u_i&#124;&#124;_2^2 \geq C^2$ for some characteristic vector $latex P$ of a HAP. But then, $latex P^T B P \geq C^2$. Does this mean that instead of test vectors $latex v_i$, we could have used characteristic vectors of HAPs instead ? If this is true, it seems that this proof technique is equivalent in power to the SDP dual argument.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To aid my own understanding, let me compare the conditions required for the SDP argument to work and those required for the representation of a diagonal matrix to work:</p>
<p>In order to prove a lower bound of <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=C&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='C' title='C' class='latex' /> on discrepancy via the SDP argument, we need the following property: for any positive semidefinite matrix <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=B&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='B' title='B' class='latex' /> with 1&#8242;s on the diagonal, there must be a HAP with corresponding characteristic vector <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=B&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='B' title='B' class='latex' /> such that <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=P%5ET+B+P+%5Cgeq+C%5E2&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='P^T B P &#92;geq C^2' title='P^T B P &#92;geq C^2' class='latex' />. This is equivalent to saying that in the vector version of EDP (where elements of the sequence are unit vectors instead of <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5Cpm+1&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;pm 1' title='&#92;pm 1' class='latex' />), the square discrepancy of some HAP is at least <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=C%5E2&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='C^2' title='C^2' class='latex' />. This is by the argument in Tim&#8217;s comment above. Since <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=B&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='B' title='B' class='latex' /> is psd, we can find vectors <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=u_i&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='u_i' title='u_i' class='latex' /> such that <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=B_%7Bij%7D%3D%5Clangle+u_i%2Cu_j%5Crangle&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='B_{ij}=&#92;langle u_i,u_j&#92;rangle' title='B_{ij}=&#92;langle u_i,u_j&#92;rangle' class='latex' />. Then <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=P%5ET+B+P+%3D+%7C%7C%5Csum_%7Bi+%5Cin+P%7D+u_i%7C%7C_2%5E2&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='P^T B P = ||&#92;sum_{i &#92;in P} u_i||_2^2' title='P^T B P = ||&#92;sum_{i &#92;in P} u_i||_2^2' class='latex' />.</p>
<p>In order to prove a lower bound of <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=C&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='C' title='C' class='latex' /> on discrepancy via the representation of a diagonal matrix argument, we need the following property: for any matrix <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=B&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='B' title='B' class='latex' /> with 1&#8242;s on the diagonal, there must be a test vector<br />
<img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=v&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='v' title='v' class='latex' /> such that <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=v%5ET+B+v+%5Cgeq+C%5E2&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='v^T B v &#92;geq C^2' title='v^T B v &#92;geq C^2' class='latex' />. I don&#8217;t think you can assume that <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=B&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='B' title='B' class='latex' /> is positive semidefinite, and if so, I don&#8217;t have a good interpretation for what this condition is saying. </p>
<p>On the other hand, consider the modification of the representation-of-diagonal argument to allow <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5Csum_i+%5Clambda_i+v_i+v_i%5ET+-+D&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;sum_i &#92;lambda_i v_i v_i^T - D' title='&#92;sum_i &#92;lambda_i v_i v_i^T - D' class='latex' /> to be positive semidefinite (earlier we insisted that this was 0). For a proof of this kind to succeed, I think you need the following: for any psd matrix <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=B&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='B' title='B' class='latex' /> with 1&#8242;s on the diagonal, there must be a test vector <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=v&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='v' title='v' class='latex' /> such that <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=v%5ET+B+v+%5Cgeq+C%5E2&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='v^T B v &#92;geq C^2' title='v^T B v &#92;geq C^2' class='latex' />. If this is the case, as Tim points out, there exist <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=u_i&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='u_i' title='u_i' class='latex' /> such that <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=B_%7Bij%7D+%3D+%5Clangle+u_i%2Cu_j+%5Crangle&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='B_{ij} = &#92;langle u_i,u_j &#92;rangle' title='B_{ij} = &#92;langle u_i,u_j &#92;rangle' class='latex' /> and the existence of the test vector <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=v&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='v' title='v' class='latex' /> implies that <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%7C%7C%5Csum_%7Bi+%5Cin+P%7D+u_i%7C%7C_2%5E2+%5Cgeq+C%5E2&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='||&#92;sum_{i &#92;in P} u_i||_2^2 &#92;geq C^2' title='||&#92;sum_{i &#92;in P} u_i||_2^2 &#92;geq C^2' class='latex' /> for some characteristic vector <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=P&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='P' title='P' class='latex' /> of a HAP. But then, <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=P%5ET+B+P+%5Cgeq+C%5E2&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='P^T B P &#92;geq C^2' title='P^T B P &#92;geq C^2' class='latex' />. Does this mean that instead of test vectors <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=v_i&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='v_i' title='v_i' class='latex' />, we could have used characteristic vectors of HAPs instead ? If this is true, it seems that this proof technique is equivalent in power to the SDP dual argument.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Alec Edgington</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/03/07/edp11-the-search-continues/#comment-6657</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Alec Edgington]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Mar 2010 07:12:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=1561#comment-6657</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[OK, thanks. But 2016 sounds rather ambitious. Is it the case that any discrepancy-2 sequence of length 1125 must agree with one of these stubs?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, thanks. But 2016 sounds rather ambitious. Is it the case that any discrepancy-2 sequence of length 1125 must agree with one of these stubs?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: gowers</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/03/07/edp11-the-search-continues/#comment-6656</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[gowers]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Mar 2010 23:47:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=1561#comment-6656</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think I&#039;ve sorted it out now, and it seems that the approach using a representation of a diagonal matrix implies the Hilbert space version of EDP. Indeed, if we can&#039;t represent a diagonal matrix in the way we want, then, as explained in the comment just above, we can find a symmetric matrix $latex B$ with 1s down the diagonal such that $latex v^TBv\leq C$ for every test vector $latex v$. Moreover, that is an equivalence. So if this method of proof works, then for every symmetric matrix $latex B$ with 1s down the diagonal there exists a test vector $latex v$ such that $latex v^Tv&gt;C$. Now $latex v$ is a convex combination of plus or minus characteristic functions of HAPs. Therefore, by averaging we can find HAPs $latex P_i$ and $latex P_j$ such that $latex P_i^TBP&gt;C$. Now since $latex B$ is symmetric and has 1s down the diagonal, we can find vectors $latex u_i$ such that $latex B_{rs}=\langle u_r,u_s\rangle$. (Actually, I&#039;m not sure I see this -- I surely need $latex B$ to be positive definite. But I&#039;m in a hurry so I&#039;ll leave this argument as it is for now.) 

But what I can definitely say is that if $latex B$ is of that form then we can find $latex P_i$ and $latex P_j$. That tells us that $latex \langle\sum_{r\in P_i}u_r,\sum_{s\in P_j}u_s\rangle&gt;C$, which by Cauchy-Schwarz tells us that the sum of the $latex u_r$ in either $latex P_i$ or $latex P_j$ has norm at least $latex C^{1/2}$. So the success of the method implies the vector-valued EDP, but it may prove something a bit more general still. I&#039;ll have to think further.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think I&#8217;ve sorted it out now, and it seems that the approach using a representation of a diagonal matrix implies the Hilbert space version of EDP. Indeed, if we can&#8217;t represent a diagonal matrix in the way we want, then, as explained in the comment just above, we can find a symmetric matrix <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=B&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='B' title='B' class='latex' /> with 1s down the diagonal such that <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=v%5ETBv%5Cleq+C&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='v^TBv&#92;leq C' title='v^TBv&#92;leq C' class='latex' /> for every test vector <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=v&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='v' title='v' class='latex' />. Moreover, that is an equivalence. So if this method of proof works, then for every symmetric matrix <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=B&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='B' title='B' class='latex' /> with 1s down the diagonal there exists a test vector <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=v&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='v' title='v' class='latex' /> such that <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=v%5ETv%3EC&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='v^Tv&gt;C' title='v^Tv&gt;C' class='latex' />. Now <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=v&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='v' title='v' class='latex' /> is a convex combination of plus or minus characteristic functions of HAPs. Therefore, by averaging we can find HAPs <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=P_i&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='P_i' title='P_i' class='latex' /> and <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=P_j&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='P_j' title='P_j' class='latex' /> such that <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=P_i%5ETBP%3EC&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='P_i^TBP&gt;C' title='P_i^TBP&gt;C' class='latex' />. Now since <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=B&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='B' title='B' class='latex' /> is symmetric and has 1s down the diagonal, we can find vectors <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=u_i&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='u_i' title='u_i' class='latex' /> such that <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=B_%7Brs%7D%3D%5Clangle+u_r%2Cu_s%5Crangle&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='B_{rs}=&#92;langle u_r,u_s&#92;rangle' title='B_{rs}=&#92;langle u_r,u_s&#92;rangle' class='latex' />. (Actually, I&#8217;m not sure I see this &#8212; I surely need <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=B&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='B' title='B' class='latex' /> to be positive definite. But I&#8217;m in a hurry so I&#8217;ll leave this argument as it is for now.) </p>
<p>But what I can definitely say is that if <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=B&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='B' title='B' class='latex' /> is of that form then we can find <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=P_i&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='P_i' title='P_i' class='latex' /> and <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=P_j&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='P_j' title='P_j' class='latex' />. That tells us that <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5Clangle%5Csum_%7Br%5Cin+P_i%7Du_r%2C%5Csum_%7Bs%5Cin+P_j%7Du_s%5Crangle%3EC&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;langle&#92;sum_{r&#92;in P_i}u_r,&#92;sum_{s&#92;in P_j}u_s&#92;rangle&gt;C' title='&#92;langle&#92;sum_{r&#92;in P_i}u_r,&#92;sum_{s&#92;in P_j}u_s&#92;rangle&gt;C' class='latex' />, which by Cauchy-Schwarz tells us that the sum of the <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=u_r&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='u_r' title='u_r' class='latex' /> in either <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=P_i&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='P_i' title='P_i' class='latex' /> or <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=P_j&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='P_j' title='P_j' class='latex' /> has norm at least <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=C%5E%7B1%2F2%7D&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='C^{1/2}' title='C^{1/2}' class='latex' />. So the success of the method implies the vector-valued EDP, but it may prove something a bit more general still. I&#8217;ll have to think further.</p>
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		<title>By: Alec Edgington</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/03/07/edp11-the-search-continues/#comment-6654</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Alec Edgington]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Mar 2010 21:15:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=1561#comment-6654</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[These data strongly support the hypothesis of logarithmic growth of $latex \sum_i b^{(N)}_i$. A linear regression of $latex \sum_i b^{(N)}_i$ against $latex \log N$ gives:

$latex  \sum_i b^{(N)}_i \approx 0.452 + 0.019 \log N$

with a standard error of $latex 0.001$.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>These data strongly support the hypothesis of logarithmic growth of <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5Csum_i+b%5E%7B%28N%29%7D_i&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;sum_i b^{(N)}_i' title='&#92;sum_i b^{(N)}_i' class='latex' />. A linear regression of <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5Csum_i+b%5E%7B%28N%29%7D_i&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;sum_i b^{(N)}_i' title='&#92;sum_i b^{(N)}_i' class='latex' /> against <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5Clog+N&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;log N' title='&#92;log N' class='latex' /> gives:</p>
<p><img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5Csum_i+b%5E%7B%28N%29%7D_i+%5Capprox+0.452+%2B+0.019+%5Clog+N&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;sum_i b^{(N)}_i &#92;approx 0.452 + 0.019 &#92;log N' title='&#92;sum_i b^{(N)}_i &#92;approx 0.452 + 0.019 &#92;log N' class='latex' /></p>
<p>with a standard error of <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=0.001&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='0.001' title='0.001' class='latex' />.</p>
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		<title>By: Moses Charikar</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/03/07/edp11-the-search-continues/#comment-6653</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Moses Charikar]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Mar 2010 18:31:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=1561#comment-6653</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[So if you do allow the positive semidefinite generalization, this seems to give a more general lower bound than the SDP dual. Having thought about it briefly, I don&#039;t see a way to get a semidefinite program to generate the best such bound. The problem seems to be dealing with the coefficients $latex \mu_i$ (a test vector is of the form $latex v= \sum \mu_i P_i$ where $latex P_i$ is the characteristic vector for a HAP, and $latex \sum &#124;\mu_i&#124; =1$.)

On the other hand, if you insist that you get a diagonal matrix exactly, my guess is that the best such bound is incomparable with the SDP dual. Allowing the positive semidefinite generalization may allow you to handle situations where you have almost got the non-diagonal entries zero, but not quite.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So if you do allow the positive semidefinite generalization, this seems to give a more general lower bound than the SDP dual. Having thought about it briefly, I don&#8217;t see a way to get a semidefinite program to generate the best such bound. The problem seems to be dealing with the coefficients <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5Cmu_i&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;mu_i' title='&#92;mu_i' class='latex' /> (a test vector is of the form <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=v%3D+%5Csum+%5Cmu_i+P_i&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='v= &#92;sum &#92;mu_i P_i' title='v= &#92;sum &#92;mu_i P_i' class='latex' /> where <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=P_i&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='P_i' title='P_i' class='latex' /> is the characteristic vector for a HAP, and <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5Csum+%7C%5Cmu_i%7C+%3D1&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;sum |&#92;mu_i| =1' title='&#92;sum |&#92;mu_i| =1' class='latex' />.)</p>
<p>On the other hand, if you insist that you get a diagonal matrix exactly, my guess is that the best such bound is incomparable with the SDP dual. Allowing the positive semidefinite generalization may allow you to handle situations where you have almost got the non-diagonal entries zero, but not quite.</p>
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		<title>By: Gil</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/03/07/edp11-the-search-continues/#comment-6651</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gil]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Mar 2010 14:14:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=1561#comment-6651</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[(Continuing the linear algebra approach that Tim mentioned.) 

Here is the simplest linear-algebraic question coming from EDP that I can think about: Let A_1, A_2,...,A_m be a partition of {1,2,...,n} into intervals of length at most t.

Consider the system of linear equations $latex \sum_{i \in rA_j} x_i=0$, where we have an equation for every r and j such that $latex rA_j$ is contained in {1,2,...,n}. 

Then we conjecture that this syetem of equations implies for a large n  that one of the $latex x_i$s equals to zero. 

It is simple but sort of a strange question. (I suppose we also conjecture that in order to have any non zero solution the A_is should be very &quot;structured&quot; but we dont know what &quot;structured&quot; precisely means. It should be related to the lengths of the intervals being periodic) 

An equivalent way to state it that takes us closer to SDP is that if we add to the equations the inequalities $latex x_i^2 \ge 1$ then the system is never feasible. 

Maybe looking at the dual problem can add some insight? 

The fact that we have equations for every way we try to partition [n] to short intervals makes it seemingly more difficult than the direct SDP approach.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(Continuing the linear algebra approach that Tim mentioned.) </p>
<p>Here is the simplest linear-algebraic question coming from EDP that I can think about: Let A_1, A_2,&#8230;,A_m be a partition of {1,2,&#8230;,n} into intervals of length at most t.</p>
<p>Consider the system of linear equations <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5Csum_%7Bi+%5Cin+rA_j%7D+x_i%3D0&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;sum_{i &#92;in rA_j} x_i=0' title='&#92;sum_{i &#92;in rA_j} x_i=0' class='latex' />, where we have an equation for every r and j such that <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=rA_j&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='rA_j' title='rA_j' class='latex' /> is contained in {1,2,&#8230;,n}. </p>
<p>Then we conjecture that this syetem of equations implies for a large n  that one of the <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=x_i&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='x_i' title='x_i' class='latex' />s equals to zero. </p>
<p>It is simple but sort of a strange question. (I suppose we also conjecture that in order to have any non zero solution the A_is should be very &#8220;structured&#8221; but we dont know what &#8220;structured&#8221; precisely means. It should be related to the lengths of the intervals being periodic) </p>
<p>An equivalent way to state it that takes us closer to SDP is that if we add to the equations the inequalities <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=x_i%5E2+%5Cge+1&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='x_i^2 &#92;ge 1' title='x_i^2 &#92;ge 1' class='latex' /> then the system is never feasible. </p>
<p>Maybe looking at the dual problem can add some insight? </p>
<p>The fact that we have equations for every way we try to partition [n] to short intervals makes it seemingly more difficult than the direct SDP approach.</p>
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		<title>By: gowers</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2010/03/07/edp11-the-search-continues/#comment-6650</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[gowers]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Mar 2010 11:28:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/?p=1561#comment-6650</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think so, so let me attempt to prove it rigorously, just to be absolutely sure.

The $latex v_i$ have the property that if $latex \langle v_i,x\rangle\geq C$ then the discrepancy of $latex x$ on some HAP is at least $latex C$. So if $latex \sum_i\lambda_iv_iv_i^T-D$ is positive semidefinite, then we can apply it to a $latex \pm 1$ sequence (that is, multiply on the left by $latex x^T$ and on the right by $latex x$) and we will find that $latex \sum_i\lambda_i&#124;\langle x,v_i\rangle&#124;^2$ is at least as big as the trace of $latex D$ (by positive semidefiniteness of the difference). It follows that the discrepancy of the sequence is at least the square root of this trace, as usual.

Put like this, it makes it look as though all the approach is doing is replacing characteristic functions of HAPs with convex combinations of plus or minus these characteristic functions. But this extra flexibility raises the possibility that one might be able to prove semidefiniteness of the difference by showing that the difference is actually zero. I&#039;m still not sure whether that is attempting to prove something far too strong.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think so, so let me attempt to prove it rigorously, just to be absolutely sure.</p>
<p>The <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=v_i&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='v_i' title='v_i' class='latex' /> have the property that if <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5Clangle+v_i%2Cx%5Crangle%5Cgeq+C&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;langle v_i,x&#92;rangle&#92;geq C' title='&#92;langle v_i,x&#92;rangle&#92;geq C' class='latex' /> then the discrepancy of <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=x&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='x' title='x' class='latex' /> on some HAP is at least <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=C&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='C' title='C' class='latex' />. So if <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5Csum_i%5Clambda_iv_iv_i%5ET-D&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;sum_i&#92;lambda_iv_iv_i^T-D' title='&#92;sum_i&#92;lambda_iv_iv_i^T-D' class='latex' /> is positive semidefinite, then we can apply it to a <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5Cpm+1&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;pm 1' title='&#92;pm 1' class='latex' /> sequence (that is, multiply on the left by <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=x%5ET&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='x^T' title='x^T' class='latex' /> and on the right by <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=x&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='x' title='x' class='latex' />) and we will find that <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5Csum_i%5Clambda_i%7C%5Clangle+x%2Cv_i%5Crangle%7C%5E2&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;sum_i&#92;lambda_i|&#92;langle x,v_i&#92;rangle|^2' title='&#92;sum_i&#92;lambda_i|&#92;langle x,v_i&#92;rangle|^2' class='latex' /> is at least as big as the trace of <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=D&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='D' title='D' class='latex' /> (by positive semidefiniteness of the difference). It follows that the discrepancy of the sequence is at least the square root of this trace, as usual.</p>
<p>Put like this, it makes it look as though all the approach is doing is replacing characteristic functions of HAPs with convex combinations of plus or minus these characteristic functions. But this extra flexibility raises the possibility that one might be able to prove semidefiniteness of the difference by showing that the difference is actually zero. I&#8217;m still not sure whether that is attempting to prove something far too strong.</p>
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