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	<title>Comments on: Examples first II</title>
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	<description>Mathematics related discussions</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 17:45:35 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2007/10/24/examples-first-ii/#comment-693</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Nov 2007 11:14:15 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Just a clarification about Bourbaki: although Bourbaki's stated *initial* goal was to write an analysis textbook that would replace the (then) old ones such as the Goursat, they quickly realized that their opus was turning into something entirely different. Indeed, the introduction states very clearly that reading the "Elements" is not recommended before having finished at least one or two years of university mathematics. So it's "elements" as in "elemental", not as in "elementary".

(By the way, it is not at all clear to me what Euclid's intended audience was for *his* "Elements" - did he really intend them as what we would now call a textbook?)

It was only 10 or 20 years later that some people started to use Bourbaki style throughout mathematics teaching, and I agree that it was, on the whole, an unhealthy development: pure theory, and almost a certain pride in shunning examples, pictures, applications, etc.

So the Bourbaki treatise and Bourbakist teaching style are two different things and should not be confused (though I admit that the members of the Bourbaki group have not always been as vocal about the confusion as they should have been).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just a clarification about Bourbaki: although Bourbaki&#8217;s stated *initial* goal was to write an analysis textbook that would replace the (then) old ones such as the Goursat, they quickly realized that their opus was turning into something entirely different. Indeed, the introduction states very clearly that reading the &#8220;Elements&#8221; is not recommended before having finished at least one or two years of university mathematics. So it&#8217;s &#8220;elements&#8221; as in &#8220;elemental&#8221;, not as in &#8220;elementary&#8221;.</p>
<p>(By the way, it is not at all clear to me what Euclid&#8217;s intended audience was for *his* &#8220;Elements&#8221; - did he really intend them as what we would now call a textbook?)</p>
<p>It was only 10 or 20 years later that some people started to use Bourbaki style throughout mathematics teaching, and I agree that it was, on the whole, an unhealthy development: pure theory, and almost a certain pride in shunning examples, pictures, applications, etc.</p>
<p>So the Bourbaki treatise and Bourbakist teaching style are two different things and should not be confused (though I admit that the members of the Bourbaki group have not always been as vocal about the confusion as they should have been).</p>
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		<title>By: Julio</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2007/10/24/examples-first-ii/#comment-686</link>
		<dc:creator>Julio</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Nov 2007 21:18:12 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Tim this  is an old question 
Let us for example take a look at a set of very dry math books like Bourbaki with their abstract approach and presenting the general theorems first and other less general results as corollaries.  I believe their objective was to be more efficient in their explanations and saving you time reading.

Many people will agree that Bourbaki will not be the place to start learning Mathematics so it will never be appropriate for many starting to learn math.
The Bourbakians may have thought otherwise since they name their work the Elements like in Euclid's elements. So maybe as simple as that. Theorem - Proof approach of many  Math books and from the General to the Particular.

Many students will quickly loose touch of the importance of the topic  without the use of some good examples if they are not able to come up with some non trivial example or even trivial ones.  

One question many students always come up is what is this thing used for?
Why is it important? if they do dare to ask  it then it means you have not shown them sufficient examples or sufficiently interesting examples of why this particular result is a theorem or something you like to show as some important result.

Naturally not every one might agree with the above statements.

A mathematical material that is written in a way that is accessible to many more people will be probably read by a group of people that might not read it otherwise. 
The trick to mathematics is not to discourage people from learning it by making expositions obscure and accessible only to a select minority of specialist but to attract more people to it to show why we like it.

So anything that can make a mathematical exposition more understandable should be use and examples are a good way to make something easier to understand.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tim this  is an old question<br />
Let us for example take a look at a set of very dry math books like Bourbaki with their abstract approach and presenting the general theorems first and other less general results as corollaries.  I believe their objective was to be more efficient in their explanations and saving you time reading.</p>
<p>Many people will agree that Bourbaki will not be the place to start learning Mathematics so it will never be appropriate for many starting to learn math.<br />
The Bourbakians may have thought otherwise since they name their work the Elements like in Euclid&#8217;s elements. So maybe as simple as that. Theorem - Proof approach of many  Math books and from the General to the Particular.</p>
<p>Many students will quickly loose touch of the importance of the topic  without the use of some good examples if they are not able to come up with some non trivial example or even trivial ones.  </p>
<p>One question many students always come up is what is this thing used for?<br />
Why is it important? if they do dare to ask  it then it means you have not shown them sufficient examples or sufficiently interesting examples of why this particular result is a theorem or something you like to show as some important result.</p>
<p>Naturally not every one might agree with the above statements.</p>
<p>A mathematical material that is written in a way that is accessible to many more people will be probably read by a group of people that might not read it otherwise.<br />
The trick to mathematics is not to discourage people from learning it by making expositions obscure and accessible only to a select minority of specialist but to attract more people to it to show why we like it.</p>
<p>So anything that can make a mathematical exposition more understandable should be use and examples are a good way to make something easier to understand.</p>
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		<title>By: Mathematics and writing</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2007/10/24/examples-first-ii/#comment-667</link>
		<dc:creator>Mathematics and writing</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Nov 2007 15:59:40 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] Examples first II [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Examples first II [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Kay</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2007/10/24/examples-first-ii/#comment-645</link>
		<dc:creator>Kay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Nov 2007 05:12:10 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Also, Laurens, I hope I didn't wear you out with my endless questions!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, Laurens, I hope I didn&#8217;t wear you out with my endless questions!</p>
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		<title>By: Kay</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2007/10/24/examples-first-ii/#comment-644</link>
		<dc:creator>Kay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Nov 2007 03:54:52 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>What a surprise! Congratulations!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What a surprise! Congratulations!!</p>
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		<title>By: Laurens Gunnarsen</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2007/10/24/examples-first-ii/#comment-643</link>
		<dc:creator>Laurens Gunnarsen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Nov 2007 03:48:50 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Professor Gowers, permit me to congratulate you on your new son.  I wish you and your family every possible joy -- and at least some sleep!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Professor Gowers, permit me to congratulate you on your new son.  I wish you and your family every possible joy &#8212; and at least some sleep!</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Dyer</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2007/10/24/examples-first-ii/#comment-633</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Dyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Nov 2007 19:46:12 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Nobody's speaking up in defense of Gallian, so I browsed through my fifth edition. I don't know any point where the book gives only an example and no rigorous definition; it almost uniformly gives a definition followed by some examples.

Where it gets irritating is it sometimes defines an important concept simultaneously with an exercise. For example: on page 89, problem 1, it defines a conjugate for the first time and asks a problem about it. The conjugate is important enough it really ought to be in the main text.

Here's how it handles the Orbit-Stabilizer Theorem (page 140):
Definition: Stabilizer of a Point
Definition: Orbit of a Point
Example: Listing the orbit and stabilizers of a specific permutation
Example: Same on permutations of a square
Theorem: Orbit-Stabilizer Theorem
Followed by: a proof
Then: An example using the rotation group of a cube
Finally: An eample using the rotation group of a soccer ball

The book isn't perfect (I wouldn't recommend relying on it as a sole reference), but I wouldn't call it a hotbed of unrigorous blashphemy either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nobody&#8217;s speaking up in defense of Gallian, so I browsed through my fifth edition. I don&#8217;t know any point where the book gives only an example and no rigorous definition; it almost uniformly gives a definition followed by some examples.</p>
<p>Where it gets irritating is it sometimes defines an important concept simultaneously with an exercise. For example: on page 89, problem 1, it defines a conjugate for the first time and asks a problem about it. The conjugate is important enough it really ought to be in the main text.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s how it handles the Orbit-Stabilizer Theorem (page 140):<br />
Definition: Stabilizer of a Point<br />
Definition: Orbit of a Point<br />
Example: Listing the orbit and stabilizers of a specific permutation<br />
Example: Same on permutations of a square<br />
Theorem: Orbit-Stabilizer Theorem<br />
Followed by: a proof<br />
Then: An example using the rotation group of a cube<br />
Finally: An eample using the rotation group of a soccer ball</p>
<p>The book isn&#8217;t perfect (I wouldn&#8217;t recommend relying on it as a sole reference), but I wouldn&#8217;t call it a hotbed of unrigorous blashphemy either.</p>
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		<title>By: Kay</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2007/10/24/examples-first-ii/#comment-619</link>
		<dc:creator>Kay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Nov 2007 16:46:32 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thanks very much for the list Deane.  Laurens, I think ideally I would wish for nothing more than a good (or even a so-so) mentor, unfortunately I don't know very much differential geometry to speak of.   I feel like I would need to learn quite a bit more mathematics before I would find somebody willing to waste much of their time on directing me on what to read and how to get over roadblocks.  That being said, I appreciate all the help from you and Deane and  from everybody else here who has had something helpful or positive to say.

Do you perhaps have any advice on how much differential geometry I should learn on my own or perhaps by taking a few classes before seeking out somebody to help me learn the rest?  How would you go about approaching people?  (I am not sure I would have the courage to ask someone like Sir Atiyah or Chern much of anything!)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks very much for the list Deane.  Laurens, I think ideally I would wish for nothing more than a good (or even a so-so) mentor, unfortunately I don&#8217;t know very much differential geometry to speak of.   I feel like I would need to learn quite a bit more mathematics before I would find somebody willing to waste much of their time on directing me on what to read and how to get over roadblocks.  That being said, I appreciate all the help from you and Deane and  from everybody else here who has had something helpful or positive to say.</p>
<p>Do you perhaps have any advice on how much differential geometry I should learn on my own or perhaps by taking a few classes before seeking out somebody to help me learn the rest?  How would you go about approaching people?  (I am not sure I would have the courage to ask someone like Sir Atiyah or Chern much of anything!)</p>
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		<title>By: Laurens Gunnarsen</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2007/10/24/examples-first-ii/#comment-611</link>
		<dc:creator>Laurens Gunnarsen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Nov 2007 03:39:49 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Deane, you are most welcome.  I too feel strongly that this wonderful video is tremendously valuable, and ought to be much better known.  I came across it one night quite by accident, while reading Atiyah's entry in Wikipedia -- the link I included in my previous post was among those listed at the end of the article.  I've now been through the whole thing at least twice, and I'm looking forward to a third viewing.  Amazing stuff.  

Oh, and I quite agree with you, by the way, that Sir Michael is a very hard act to follow.  Offhand, the only person who seems to me possibly up to the job is Vladimir Arnol'd.  And both of them, in different ways, remind me of Chern.  

Gosh, I miss that guy.

(A small postscript: I wrote to the People's Archive to suggest that they visit Stony Brook to interview Milnor, but I've never heard back from them.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Deane, you are most welcome.  I too feel strongly that this wonderful video is tremendously valuable, and ought to be much better known.  I came across it one night quite by accident, while reading Atiyah&#8217;s entry in Wikipedia &#8212; the link I included in my previous post was among those listed at the end of the article.  I&#8217;ve now been through the whole thing at least twice, and I&#8217;m looking forward to a third viewing.  Amazing stuff.  </p>
<p>Oh, and I quite agree with you, by the way, that Sir Michael is a very hard act to follow.  Offhand, the only person who seems to me possibly up to the job is Vladimir Arnol&#8217;d.  And both of them, in different ways, remind me of Chern.  </p>
<p>Gosh, I miss that guy.</p>
<p>(A small postscript: I wrote to the People&#8217;s Archive to suggest that they visit Stony Brook to interview Milnor, but I&#8217;ve never heard back from them.)</p>
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		<title>By: Deane Yang</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2007/10/24/examples-first-ii/#comment-610</link>
		<dc:creator>Deane Yang</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Nov 2007 02:45:36 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>As for the best place in the US to study differential geometry, the following schools come to mind (in no particular order and probably incomplete):

Harvard
MIT
NYU
Stanford
Princeton
Stony Brook</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As for the best place in the US to study differential geometry, the following schools come to mind (in no particular order and probably incomplete):</p>
<p>Harvard<br />
MIT<br />
NYU<br />
Stanford<br />
Princeton<br />
Stony Brook</p>
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