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	<title>Comments on: Discovering a formula for the cubic</title>
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	<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2007/09/15/discovering-a-formula-for-the-cubic/</link>
	<description>Mathematics related discussions</description>
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		<title>By: Geometry of a Polynomial &#171; Rigorous Trivialities</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2007/09/15/discovering-a-formula-for-the-cubic/#comment-946</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Geometry of a Polynomial &#171; Rigorous Trivialities]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2008 22:26:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/2007/09/15/discovering-a-formula-for-the-cubic/#comment-946</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] of equations involving  (because it contains a cubic, which is not good, see this post of mine and this one of Gowers&#8217;s which show how hard a single variable cubic is), we can instead homogenize  and solve the system [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] of equations involving  (because it contains a cubic, which is not good, see this post of mine and this one of Gowers&#8217;s which show how hard a single variable cubic is), we can instead homogenize  and solve the system [...]</p>
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		<title>By: John Armstrong</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2007/09/15/discovering-a-formula-for-the-cubic/#comment-897</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Armstrong]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Dec 2007 21:16:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/2007/09/15/discovering-a-formula-for-the-cubic/#comment-897</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Heinrich: or you could use &lt;a href=&quot;http://unapologetic.wordpress.com/2007/11/14/faulhabers-fabulous-formula/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Faulhaber&#039;s Fabulous Formula&lt;/a&gt;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Heinrich: or you could use <a href="http://unapologetic.wordpress.com/2007/11/14/faulhabers-fabulous-formula/" rel="nofollow">Faulhaber&#8217;s Fabulous Formula</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Heinrich</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2007/09/15/discovering-a-formula-for-the-cubic/#comment-896</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Heinrich]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Dec 2007 20:47:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/2007/09/15/discovering-a-formula-for-the-cubic/#comment-896</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Oh, and concerning the sum $1^k + 2^k + \dots + n^k$, there is a simple way for finding a formula for any given $k$: the simple observation is that in the cases $k=1,2,3$, the formula is a polynomial of degree $k+1$ and the idea is to make exactly this ansatz in the general case.

This is further simplified by changing coordinates, i.e. by using a different basis than $n^j$ for the vector space of polynomials. A better basis is $n, n(n-1), n(n-1)(n-2), \dots, n(n-1)\cdots(n-k)$ since these functions have nice sums. In other words, try to find an explicit formula for $\sum_{a=0}^n a(a-1)(a-2)$ and be delighted :-)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, and concerning the sum $1^k + 2^k + \dots + n^k$, there is a simple way for finding a formula for any given $k$: the simple observation is that in the cases $k=1,2,3$, the formula is a polynomial of degree $k+1$ and the idea is to make exactly this ansatz in the general case.</p>
<p>This is further simplified by changing coordinates, i.e. by using a different basis than $n^j$ for the vector space of polynomials. A better basis is $n, n(n-1), n(n-1)(n-2), \dots, n(n-1)\cdots(n-k)$ since these functions have nice sums. In other words, try to find an explicit formula for $\sum_{a=0}^n a(a-1)(a-2)$ and be delighted <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Heinrich</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2007/09/15/discovering-a-formula-for-the-cubic/#comment-895</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Heinrich]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Dec 2007 20:32:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/2007/09/15/discovering-a-formula-for-the-cubic/#comment-895</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As Nick already pointed out, the historical route to Galois theory is the most illuminating. According to the marvelous read

  Jörg Bewersdorff. Galois Theory for Beginners: A Historical Perspective
  http://tinyurl.com/2u6k52

Lagrange came up with the sum-of-roots-of-unity ansatz while trying to understand what&#039;s going on with the quintic.

In fact, I find the usual &quot;modern&quot; presentation of Galois theory utterly incomprehensible. I mean, it&#039;s not so bad and quite simple after knowing the historical approach of permuting the roots. But why, why is the easy way pretty much forgotten? Why struggle months with something abstract-nonsensical and void of motivation when there&#039;s a dead simple and even more illuminating approach to understand it in hours? As Feynman (?) put it: &quot;If you can&#039;t explain it to a six year old, you don&#039;t really understand it.&quot; But I&#039;m preaching to the choir :-)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As Nick already pointed out, the historical route to Galois theory is the most illuminating. According to the marvelous read</p>
<p>  Jörg Bewersdorff. Galois Theory for Beginners: A Historical Perspective<br />
  <a href="http://tinyurl.com/2u6k52" rel="nofollow">http://tinyurl.com/2u6k52</a></p>
<p>Lagrange came up with the sum-of-roots-of-unity ansatz while trying to understand what&#8217;s going on with the quintic.</p>
<p>In fact, I find the usual &#8220;modern&#8221; presentation of Galois theory utterly incomprehensible. I mean, it&#8217;s not so bad and quite simple after knowing the historical approach of permuting the roots. But why, why is the easy way pretty much forgotten? Why struggle months with something abstract-nonsensical and void of motivation when there&#8217;s a dead simple and even more illuminating approach to understand it in hours? As Feynman (?) put it: &#8220;If you can&#8217;t explain it to a six year old, you don&#8217;t really understand it.&#8221; But I&#8217;m preaching to the choir <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Ricardo S</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2007/09/15/discovering-a-formula-for-the-cubic/#comment-872</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ricardo S]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Dec 2007 06:25:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/2007/09/15/discovering-a-formula-for-the-cubic/#comment-872</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[When Mark Kac was young he solved the cubic in a different way if a, b, and c are the roots and w^3 = 1 where w is not 1.

Let s = a + b + c, t = a + wb +w^2c, u = a + w^2b + wc 

Then express t^3 + u^3 and t^3 * u^3 in terms of the symmetric terms.

There is a nice story to that solution you can find it in Mark Kac&#039;s autobiography &quot;Enigmas of Chance&quot;.

It seems to me that this solution is related to Terence Tao&#039;s solution as a sort of inverse transformation.

Since someone cited sums of powers I remembered finding a nice &quot;geometrical&quot; solution to the sum of squares 1^2 + 2^2 + 3^2 +...+ n^2. Organize one 1, two 2&#039;s, three 3&#039;s, ...., and n n&#039;s into an equilateral triangle in the natural way, then add the corresponding elements of the three versions of this triangle (the original and the rotated by 120 and 240 degrees) it nice to see that the sum is constant and equal to 2n+1. Since there are n(n+1)/2 elements in the triangle the total sum is  n(n+1)/2*(2n+1) and the sum of the elements in the original triangle n(n+1)(2n+1)/6 which is the sum of the squares.

I would like to present this in a motivated way but I am afraid that is somewhat longer. I also tried to generalize this idea to get the sum of cubes but failed. Since it has such a nice sum I suppose that it could also have a nice geometrical method to it. Anyone has an idea?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When Mark Kac was young he solved the cubic in a different way if a, b, and c are the roots and w^3 = 1 where w is not 1.</p>
<p>Let s = a + b + c, t = a + wb +w^2c, u = a + w^2b + wc </p>
<p>Then express t^3 + u^3 and t^3 * u^3 in terms of the symmetric terms.</p>
<p>There is a nice story to that solution you can find it in Mark Kac&#8217;s autobiography &#8220;Enigmas of Chance&#8221;.</p>
<p>It seems to me that this solution is related to Terence Tao&#8217;s solution as a sort of inverse transformation.</p>
<p>Since someone cited sums of powers I remembered finding a nice &#8220;geometrical&#8221; solution to the sum of squares 1^2 + 2^2 + 3^2 +&#8230;+ n^2. Organize one 1, two 2&#8242;s, three 3&#8242;s, &#8230;., and n n&#8217;s into an equilateral triangle in the natural way, then add the corresponding elements of the three versions of this triangle (the original and the rotated by 120 and 240 degrees) it nice to see that the sum is constant and equal to 2n+1. Since there are n(n+1)/2 elements in the triangle the total sum is  n(n+1)/2*(2n+1) and the sum of the elements in the original triangle n(n+1)(2n+1)/6 which is the sum of the squares.</p>
<p>I would like to present this in a motivated way but I am afraid that is somewhat longer. I also tried to generalize this idea to get the sum of cubes but failed. Since it has such a nice sum I suppose that it could also have a nice geometrical method to it. Anyone has an idea?</p>
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		<title>By: Nick Krempel</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2007/09/15/discovering-a-formula-for-the-cubic/#comment-737</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nick Krempel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2007 16:57:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/2007/09/15/discovering-a-formula-for-the-cubic/#comment-737</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sorry for this somewhat late post - I just discovered your blog and am playing catch-up! Re: your &quot;arriving at a completely demystified proof of the insolubility of the quintic&quot;, I would recommend looking at Galois theory by the route through which it was originally discovered, rather than the more modern abstract point of view. Or more accurately, the various attempts at it (e.g. by Lagrange) which were subsequently refined (Galois) and what ideas led them at each stage. I haven&#039;t yet read much about this myself, but as far as I remember the book &quot;Pioneers of Representation Theory&quot; has a nice section on this early on, including the sorts of explicit calculations gregknese was enquiring about - how do I actually &quot;solve&quot; this supposedly solvable equation?

On an unrelated note, when you say &quot;we end up needing to solve quadratics and take cube roots, both of which we are allowed to assume that we can do&quot;, I wonder how many people would actually consider cube roots of a complex number something basic they &quot;can calculate&quot;, as, unlike in the square root case, you can&#039;t find the real and imaginary parts in terms of roots of only real numbers, so presumably would resort to using transcendental functions (in which case you could of course solve the quintic too.) Utlimately you have to make a choice of &quot;numbers I can deal with&quot; - something you&#039;ve talked about before in other places.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry for this somewhat late post &#8211; I just discovered your blog and am playing catch-up! Re: your &#8220;arriving at a completely demystified proof of the insolubility of the quintic&#8221;, I would recommend looking at Galois theory by the route through which it was originally discovered, rather than the more modern abstract point of view. Or more accurately, the various attempts at it (e.g. by Lagrange) which were subsequently refined (Galois) and what ideas led them at each stage. I haven&#8217;t yet read much about this myself, but as far as I remember the book &#8220;Pioneers of Representation Theory&#8221; has a nice section on this early on, including the sorts of explicit calculations gregknese was enquiring about &#8211; how do I actually &#8220;solve&#8221; this supposedly solvable equation?</p>
<p>On an unrelated note, when you say &#8220;we end up needing to solve quadratics and take cube roots, both of which we are allowed to assume that we can do&#8221;, I wonder how many people would actually consider cube roots of a complex number something basic they &#8220;can calculate&#8221;, as, unlike in the square root case, you can&#8217;t find the real and imaginary parts in terms of roots of only real numbers, so presumably would resort to using transcendental functions (in which case you could of course solve the quintic too.) Utlimately you have to make a choice of &#8220;numbers I can deal with&#8221; &#8211; something you&#8217;ve talked about before in other places.</p>
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		<title>By: JOHN SMITH</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2007/09/15/discovering-a-formula-for-the-cubic/#comment-131</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[JOHN SMITH]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Sep 2007 15:47:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/2007/09/15/discovering-a-formula-for-the-cubic/#comment-131</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for that Tim. What you say is encouraging to me. I have deliberately Not read this post on the cubic in its entirety because I wanted to discover it without being told how which is I presume, the whole idea of the post.
At first I tried &#039;completing the cube&#039;, which seemed a natural thing to try but I was heading in the wrong direction..]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for that Tim. What you say is encouraging to me. I have deliberately Not read this post on the cubic in its entirety because I wanted to discover it without being told how which is I presume, the whole idea of the post.<br />
At first I tried &#8216;completing the cube&#8217;, which seemed a natural thing to try but I was heading in the wrong direction..</p>
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		<title>By: gowers</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2007/09/15/discovering-a-formula-for-the-cubic/#comment-129</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[gowers]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Sep 2007 14:43:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/2007/09/15/discovering-a-formula-for-the-cubic/#comment-129</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[My answer to JOHN SMITH&#039;s first question of September 18th is that I would expect most Cambridge undergraduates &lt;em&gt;not&lt;/em&gt; to manage to find a solution to the cubic unaided. However, that is not because they would be incapable of it. My post tries to demonstrate that by showing that you don&#039;t have to have flashes of genius to solve the cubic -- just the wish to generalize the quadratic solution in as natural a way as you can. Rather, it is because only a smallish proportion of Cambridge undergraduates (or indeed, mathematics undergraduates anywhere) start out with the belief that they could ever solve a mathematics problem that wasn&#039;t carefully constructed to be solvable in a fairly routine way. There&#039;s a simple way of getting this belief, which is to solve one hard problem. It may take a few hours, or a week, or a month, or six months, or even longer, but once someone has done it they understand from their own experience that it is possible. Then they start to have positive thoughts like, &quot;What strategy will maximize my chances of solving this problem?&quot; or &quot;I seem to keep having the same difficulty -- what could I do differently?&quot; rather than negative ones like, &quot;Maths is hard, and I haven&#039;t been taught how to do this, so there&#039;s no chance of my managing.&quot; And then they find that solving difficult problems is just like many other activities: hard, yes, but not impossible and something that gets easier with practice.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My answer to JOHN SMITH&#8217;s first question of September 18th is that I would expect most Cambridge undergraduates <em>not</em> to manage to find a solution to the cubic unaided. However, that is not because they would be incapable of it. My post tries to demonstrate that by showing that you don&#8217;t have to have flashes of genius to solve the cubic &#8212; just the wish to generalize the quadratic solution in as natural a way as you can. Rather, it is because only a smallish proportion of Cambridge undergraduates (or indeed, mathematics undergraduates anywhere) start out with the belief that they could ever solve a mathematics problem that wasn&#8217;t carefully constructed to be solvable in a fairly routine way. There&#8217;s a simple way of getting this belief, which is to solve one hard problem. It may take a few hours, or a week, or a month, or six months, or even longer, but once someone has done it they understand from their own experience that it is possible. Then they start to have positive thoughts like, &#8220;What strategy will maximize my chances of solving this problem?&#8221; or &#8220;I seem to keep having the same difficulty &#8212; what could I do differently?&#8221; rather than negative ones like, &#8220;Maths is hard, and I haven&#8217;t been taught how to do this, so there&#8217;s no chance of my managing.&#8221; And then they find that solving difficult problems is just like many other activities: hard, yes, but not impossible and something that gets easier with practice.</p>
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		<title>By: One way of looking at Cauchy&#8217;s theorem &#171; Gowers&#8217;s Weblog</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2007/09/15/discovering-a-formula-for-the-cubic/#comment-122</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[One way of looking at Cauchy&#8217;s theorem &#171; Gowers&#8217;s Weblog]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2007 08:30:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/2007/09/15/discovering-a-formula-for-the-cubic/#comment-122</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] this? The reason is rather similar to the reason that I got rid of the square root round  in my  post about cubics. In both cases I wanted to generalize something that was a bit too complicated for it to be obvious [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] this? The reason is rather similar to the reason that I got rid of the square root round  in my  post about cubics. In both cases I wanted to generalize something that was a bit too complicated for it to be obvious [...]</p>
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		<title>By: davidspeyer</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2007/09/15/discovering-a-formula-for-the-cubic/#comment-116</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[davidspeyer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 22:15:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/2007/09/15/discovering-a-formula-for-the-cubic/#comment-116</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[JOHN SMITH:

There is a discussion in section 6.5 of Concrete Mathematics, by Graham, Knuth and Patashnik, of how one might discover and prove the formula for this sum by nothing but sheer obstinancy. Later, in section 7.3, they describe how the problem becomes easier when armed with the tool of generating functions. I&#039;ll sketch the latter attack here, because generating functions are a great tool. Set S(m,n)=1+2^m+3^m+..+n^m. There are four approaches you might try in a generating function attack: you could define any of the four functions

A_m(w)=sum_n S(m,n) w^n, B_m(w)=sum_n S(m,n) w^n/n!, C_n(z)=sum_m S(m,n) z^m, or D_n(z)=sum_m S(m,n) z^m/m!

and try to get this function into a simple form. With A, B and C, we strike out. But, if we come back for a fourth swing, D_n has the nice closed form

(e^{nz}-1)/(e^z-1)=(sum_{k&gt;=1} n^k z^k/k! ) (1/z-1/2+z/6-z^3/30+...)

and we get the closed formula immediately. So one approach to this sum comes down to knowing about generating functions, being willing to try again when the first attack fails, and some basic comfort manipulating series.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JOHN SMITH:</p>
<p>There is a discussion in section 6.5 of Concrete Mathematics, by Graham, Knuth and Patashnik, of how one might discover and prove the formula for this sum by nothing but sheer obstinancy. Later, in section 7.3, they describe how the problem becomes easier when armed with the tool of generating functions. I&#8217;ll sketch the latter attack here, because generating functions are a great tool. Set S(m,n)=1+2^m+3^m+..+n^m. There are four approaches you might try in a generating function attack: you could define any of the four functions</p>
<p>A_m(w)=sum_n S(m,n) w^n, B_m(w)=sum_n S(m,n) w^n/n!, C_n(z)=sum_m S(m,n) z^m, or D_n(z)=sum_m S(m,n) z^m/m!</p>
<p>and try to get this function into a simple form. With A, B and C, we strike out. But, if we come back for a fourth swing, D_n has the nice closed form</p>
<p>(e^{nz}-1)/(e^z-1)=(sum_{k&gt;=1} n^k z^k/k! ) (1/z-1/2+z/6-z^3/30+&#8230;)</p>
<p>and we get the closed formula immediately. So one approach to this sum comes down to knowing about generating functions, being willing to try again when the first attack fails, and some basic comfort manipulating series.</p>
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		<title>By: JOHN SMITH</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2007/09/15/discovering-a-formula-for-the-cubic/#comment-112</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[JOHN SMITH]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 12:27:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/2007/09/15/discovering-a-formula-for-the-cubic/#comment-112</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi Tim,

It was stated on your home page that any reasonable person wouldn&#039;t be expected to solve the cubic in a few hours or so. However, how long would you expect say a cambridge undergraduate with no knowledge of solving the cubic to discover the solution? 

And I wondered if it would be a good idea if you were to write a similar article on finding the closed form sum of 1+(2^m)+(3^m)...+n^m where n and m are positive integers, to offer some insight into how one might discover the formula for that? 

Thanks,
John]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Tim,</p>
<p>It was stated on your home page that any reasonable person wouldn&#8217;t be expected to solve the cubic in a few hours or so. However, how long would you expect say a cambridge undergraduate with no knowledge of solving the cubic to discover the solution? </p>
<p>And I wondered if it would be a good idea if you were to write a similar article on finding the closed form sum of 1+(2^m)+(3^m)&#8230;+n^m where n and m are positive integers, to offer some insight into how one might discover the formula for that? </p>
<p>Thanks,<br />
John</p>
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		<title>By: Terence Tao</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2007/09/15/discovering-a-formula-for-the-cubic/#comment-102</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Terence Tao]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Sep 2007 04:33:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/2007/09/15/discovering-a-formula-for-the-cubic/#comment-102</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[By some coincidence, there is another blog post on the solvability of the cubic, this time from the perspective of classical invariant theory, at

http://rigtriv.wordpress.com/2007/08/29/invariants-and-solving-polynomials/

Basically, the philosophy here is to only permit yourself to write down expressions (such as the discriminant) which transform nicely under projective changes of coordinates.  There are relatively few of these expressions, and so you have a smaller &quot;search space&quot; in which to find the invariants that factorise the original polynomial into linear factors.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By some coincidence, there is another blog post on the solvability of the cubic, this time from the perspective of classical invariant theory, at</p>
<p><a href="http://rigtriv.wordpress.com/2007/08/29/invariants-and-solving-polynomials/" rel="nofollow">http://rigtriv.wordpress.com/2007/08/29/invariants-and-solving-polynomials/</a></p>
<p>Basically, the philosophy here is to only permit yourself to write down expressions (such as the discriminant) which transform nicely under projective changes of coordinates.  There are relatively few of these expressions, and so you have a smaller &#8220;search space&#8221; in which to find the invariants that factorise the original polynomial into linear factors.</p>
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		<title>By: gregknese</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2007/09/15/discovering-a-formula-for-the-cubic/#comment-99</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[gregknese]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Sep 2007 19:34:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/2007/09/15/discovering-a-formula-for-the-cubic/#comment-99</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I really enjoyed this post and the discussions afterwards.  It seems many people are rusty on Galois theory.  Every time I have learned Galois theory (and then promptly forgotten it) I always left feeling that it is an amazing theory but I would never know how to use it to solve a concrete question. For example: If one knows that a given quintic is solvable by radicals, how does one go from there and actually find the roots?  Any thoughts?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really enjoyed this post and the discussions afterwards.  It seems many people are rusty on Galois theory.  Every time I have learned Galois theory (and then promptly forgotten it) I always left feeling that it is an amazing theory but I would never know how to use it to solve a concrete question. For example: If one knows that a given quintic is solvable by radicals, how does one go from there and actually find the roots?  Any thoughts?</p>
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		<title>By: gowers</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2007/09/15/discovering-a-formula-for-the-cubic/#comment-91</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[gowers]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Sep 2007 23:05:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/2007/09/15/discovering-a-formula-for-the-cubic/#comment-91</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Phil: thanks -- typo fixed.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Phil: thanks &#8212; typo fixed.</p>
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		<title>By: Phil G</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2007/09/15/discovering-a-formula-for-the-cubic/#comment-90</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Phil G]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Sep 2007 21:54:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/2007/09/15/discovering-a-formula-for-the-cubic/#comment-90</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for the nice post. Give us more like this please :-)
I think you have a typo where you have written x3 -  dx - c 3 instead of x2  -  dx - c 3]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the nice post. Give us more like this please <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
I think you have a typo where you have written x3 &#8211;  dx &#8211; c 3 instead of x2  &#8211;  dx &#8211; c 3</p>
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		<title>By: Gaspard</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2007/09/15/discovering-a-formula-for-the-cubic/#comment-89</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gaspard]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Sep 2007 20:53:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/2007/09/15/discovering-a-formula-for-the-cubic/#comment-89</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[About a demystified proof of the insolubility of the quintic: I heard (but haven&#039;t checked myself) that a nice book about this is the one by Alekseev which explains a topological approach due to Arnold which is meant to be understandable by high school students. Here&#039;s the amazon entry http://www.amazon.com/Abels-Theorem-Problems-Solutions-International/dp/1402021860  and here is a related note of Arnold about it http://www.institut.math.jussieu.fr/seminaires/singularites/abel.pdf]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>About a demystified proof of the insolubility of the quintic: I heard (but haven&#8217;t checked myself) that a nice book about this is the one by Alekseev which explains a topological approach due to Arnold which is meant to be understandable by high school students. Here&#8217;s the amazon entry <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Abels-Theorem-Problems-Solutions-International/dp/1402021860" rel="nofollow">http://www.amazon.com/Abels-Theorem-Problems-Solutions-International/dp/1402021860</a>  and here is a related note of Arnold about it <a href="http://www.institut.math.jussieu.fr/seminaires/singularites/abel.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.institut.math.jussieu.fr/seminaires/singularites/abel.pdf</a></p>
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		<title>By: gowers</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2007/09/15/discovering-a-formula-for-the-cubic/#comment-88</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[gowers]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Sep 2007 20:07:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/2007/09/15/discovering-a-formula-for-the-cubic/#comment-88</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Terry: I didn&#039;t have the &quot;p&quot; in &quot;\pmatrix&quot; and my slashes were the wrong way round: thanks for the tip. I idly wondered about Fourier analysis when the circulant matrix came up (of course) but didn&#039;t get further than that &quot;idly&quot;. It is indeed a nice way of looking at it, and gives me some hope of carrying out a further project, possibly with the help of suggestions on this blog, of arriving at a completely demystified proof of the insolubility of the quintic. My Galois theory is also very rusty --- in fact, I never really understood it properly as an undergraduate --- which I regard as an essential qualification for carrying out such a project, since what I&#039;d really like to do is end up with a proof that doesn&#039;t use the language of group theory. Alternatively, I&#039;d like to make enough elementary observations (all by following natural problem-solving techniques) that the idea of looking at automorphisms of number fields emerges of its own accord. The second approach is probably more tempting to anybody who does know their Galois theory well, but it is a challenge to do it if you aren&#039;t allowed to draw rabbits out of hats. But your idea of &lt;em&gt;not&lt;/em&gt; doing the initial simplification by getting rid of the quadratic term and seeing two symmetries in operation is a big help, since, as you say, it leads to the notion of solvability of a group (not that I have fully worked out the connection either, and one has to try to find the connection in a way that doesn&#039;t rely on knowing that it is there to be found).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Terry: I didn&#8217;t have the &#8220;p&#8221; in &#8220;\pmatrix&#8221; and my slashes were the wrong way round: thanks for the tip. I idly wondered about Fourier analysis when the circulant matrix came up (of course) but didn&#8217;t get further than that &#8220;idly&#8221;. It is indeed a nice way of looking at it, and gives me some hope of carrying out a further project, possibly with the help of suggestions on this blog, of arriving at a completely demystified proof of the insolubility of the quintic. My Galois theory is also very rusty &#8212; in fact, I never really understood it properly as an undergraduate &#8212; which I regard as an essential qualification for carrying out such a project, since what I&#8217;d really like to do is end up with a proof that doesn&#8217;t use the language of group theory. Alternatively, I&#8217;d like to make enough elementary observations (all by following natural problem-solving techniques) that the idea of looking at automorphisms of number fields emerges of its own accord. The second approach is probably more tempting to anybody who does know their Galois theory well, but it is a challenge to do it if you aren&#8217;t allowed to draw rabbits out of hats. But your idea of <em>not</em> doing the initial simplification by getting rid of the quadratic term and seeing two symmetries in operation is a big help, since, as you say, it leads to the notion of solvability of a group (not that I have fully worked out the connection either, and one has to try to find the connection in a way that doesn&#8217;t rely on knowing that it is there to be found).</p>
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		<title>By: Terence Tao</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2007/09/15/discovering-a-formula-for-the-cubic/#comment-87</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Terence Tao]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Sep 2007 19:41:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/2007/09/15/discovering-a-formula-for-the-cubic/#comment-87</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dear Tim,

For matrices in wordpress, I find that \begin{pmatrix} ...  \\ ... \end{pmatrix} works nicely, e.g. $latex \begin{pmatrix} a &amp; b \\ -b &amp; a \end{pmatrix}$.  (If you &quot;edit&quot; this comment you will be able to steal the latex code.)

It is amusing to recast your above discussion through the lens of Fourier analysis. One can view solving a polynomial as solving a system of symmetrised equations.  For instance, by the factor theorem, the task of finding the three roots x,y,z of the cubic $latex x^3 + bx^2 + cx + d = 0$ is equivalent to solving the system of equations

$latex x+y+z = -b$
$latex xy + yz + xz = c$
$latex xyz = -d$.

Now these equations are invariant under cyclic shift of the x,y,z.  One of the key insights of Fourier analysis is that any mathematical problem which enjoys a translation invariance symmetry is likely to be clarified by use of the Fourier transform.  This would motivate the Fourier substitution $latex x = u+v+w$, $latex y = u + \omega v + \omega^2 w$, $latex z = u + \omega^2 v + \omega w$, which leads to

$latex 3u = -b$
$latex 3u^2 + 3vw = c$
$latex u^3 + v^3 + w^3 - 3 uvw = -d$.

This lets one solve for u; to solve for v and w one can then observe a residual cyclic symmetry between v and w, prompting another Fourier transform $latex v = s+t$, $latex w = s-t$, which soon lets one solve for everything.

Presumably this can all be interpreted nicely in terms of the Galois group $latex S_3$, and in particular to the solvability of that group, especially given that solvable groups can be &quot;built up&quot; from abelian groups such as $latex {\Bbb Z}/3{\Bbb Z}$ and $latex {\Bbb Z}/2{\Bbb Z}$, which are precisely the groups which enjoy nice Fourier transforms.  My Galois theory is incredibly rusty, though, so I don&#039;t see the connection clearly.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Tim,</p>
<p>For matrices in wordpress, I find that \begin{pmatrix} &#8230;  \\ &#8230; \end{pmatrix} works nicely, e.g. <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5Cbegin%7Bpmatrix%7D+a+%26+b+%5C%5C+-b+%26+a+%5Cend%7Bpmatrix%7D&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;begin{pmatrix} a &amp; b &#92;&#92; -b &amp; a &#92;end{pmatrix}' title='&#92;begin{pmatrix} a &amp; b &#92;&#92; -b &amp; a &#92;end{pmatrix}' class='latex' />.  (If you &#8220;edit&#8221; this comment you will be able to steal the latex code.)</p>
<p>It is amusing to recast your above discussion through the lens of Fourier analysis. One can view solving a polynomial as solving a system of symmetrised equations.  For instance, by the factor theorem, the task of finding the three roots x,y,z of the cubic <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=x%5E3+%2B+bx%5E2+%2B+cx+%2B+d+%3D+0&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='x^3 + bx^2 + cx + d = 0' title='x^3 + bx^2 + cx + d = 0' class='latex' /> is equivalent to solving the system of equations</p>
<p><img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=x%2By%2Bz+%3D+-b&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='x+y+z = -b' title='x+y+z = -b' class='latex' /><br />
<img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=xy+%2B+yz+%2B+xz+%3D+c&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='xy + yz + xz = c' title='xy + yz + xz = c' class='latex' /><br />
<img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=xyz+%3D+-d&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='xyz = -d' title='xyz = -d' class='latex' />.</p>
<p>Now these equations are invariant under cyclic shift of the x,y,z.  One of the key insights of Fourier analysis is that any mathematical problem which enjoys a translation invariance symmetry is likely to be clarified by use of the Fourier transform.  This would motivate the Fourier substitution <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=x+%3D+u%2Bv%2Bw&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='x = u+v+w' title='x = u+v+w' class='latex' />, <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=y+%3D+u+%2B+%5Comega+v+%2B+%5Comega%5E2+w&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='y = u + &#92;omega v + &#92;omega^2 w' title='y = u + &#92;omega v + &#92;omega^2 w' class='latex' />, <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=z+%3D+u+%2B+%5Comega%5E2+v+%2B+%5Comega+w&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='z = u + &#92;omega^2 v + &#92;omega w' title='z = u + &#92;omega^2 v + &#92;omega w' class='latex' />, which leads to</p>
<p><img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=3u+%3D+-b&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='3u = -b' title='3u = -b' class='latex' /><br />
<img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=3u%5E2+%2B+3vw+%3D+c&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='3u^2 + 3vw = c' title='3u^2 + 3vw = c' class='latex' /><br />
<img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=u%5E3+%2B+v%5E3+%2B+w%5E3+-+3+uvw+%3D+-d&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='u^3 + v^3 + w^3 - 3 uvw = -d' title='u^3 + v^3 + w^3 - 3 uvw = -d' class='latex' />.</p>
<p>This lets one solve for u; to solve for v and w one can then observe a residual cyclic symmetry between v and w, prompting another Fourier transform <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=v+%3D+s%2Bt&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='v = s+t' title='v = s+t' class='latex' />, <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=w+%3D+s-t&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='w = s-t' title='w = s-t' class='latex' />, which soon lets one solve for everything.</p>
<p>Presumably this can all be interpreted nicely in terms of the Galois group <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=S_3&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='S_3' title='S_3' class='latex' />, and in particular to the solvability of that group, especially given that solvable groups can be &#8220;built up&#8221; from abelian groups such as <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%7B%5CBbb+Z%7D%2F3%7B%5CBbb+Z%7D&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='{&#92;Bbb Z}/3{&#92;Bbb Z}' title='{&#92;Bbb Z}/3{&#92;Bbb Z}' class='latex' /> and <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%7B%5CBbb+Z%7D%2F2%7B%5CBbb+Z%7D&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='{&#92;Bbb Z}/2{&#92;Bbb Z}' title='{&#92;Bbb Z}/2{&#92;Bbb Z}' class='latex' />, which are precisely the groups which enjoy nice Fourier transforms.  My Galois theory is incredibly rusty, though, so I don&#8217;t see the connection clearly.</p>
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		<title>By: echoone</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2007/09/15/discovering-a-formula-for-the-cubic/#comment-86</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[echoone]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Sep 2007 19:03:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/2007/09/15/discovering-a-formula-for-the-cubic/#comment-86</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Check out &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.forums.wordpress.com/topic.php?id=9339&amp;page&amp;replies=7&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this post&lt;/a&gt;. It helped figure out how to get matrices working properly on WordPress.com]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Check out <a href="http://en.forums.wordpress.com/topic.php?id=9339&amp;page&amp;replies=7" rel="nofollow">this post</a>. It helped figure out how to get matrices working properly on WordPress.com</p>
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		<title>By: Maurizio</title>
		<link>http://gowers.wordpress.com/2007/09/15/discovering-a-formula-for-the-cubic/#comment-85</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Maurizio]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Sep 2007 18:49:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gowers.wordpress.com/2007/09/15/discovering-a-formula-for-the-cubic/#comment-85</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dear Timothy, let me praise your effort in &quot;demystifying proofs&quot;, i think that it is one of the most important roles of mathematics and we (mathematicians or just students like me) should try to spread a wider conscience of its importance.
This is a more &quot;human&quot; aspect of mathematics, since it concerns more &quot;who is studing&quot; rather than &quot;what is being studied&quot;.
I feel often tempted to try to learn proofs and to make proofs just by blindly applying magic tricks, trying to produce a proof that may be checked by a computer, but that would give no insight about what is being proved. I&#039;m now learning to recognize such tendency as missing trust in what can be understood (while instead i&#039;m blindly relying on my intuitive skills to &quot;set up the mess&quot;), and i&#039;m trying to correct it by all means.
When (if) i will be a professor, i will be very careful while saying someone to &quot;work hard&quot;, to avoid people trying to do so by just studying theorems without sufficient awareness (instead of trying to develop it).
I&#039;m just trying to express my thoughts, and i&#039;d be happy to listen the advice of more experienced people. Thanks for your post!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Timothy, let me praise your effort in &#8220;demystifying proofs&#8221;, i think that it is one of the most important roles of mathematics and we (mathematicians or just students like me) should try to spread a wider conscience of its importance.<br />
This is a more &#8220;human&#8221; aspect of mathematics, since it concerns more &#8220;who is studing&#8221; rather than &#8220;what is being studied&#8221;.<br />
I feel often tempted to try to learn proofs and to make proofs just by blindly applying magic tricks, trying to produce a proof that may be checked by a computer, but that would give no insight about what is being proved. I&#8217;m now learning to recognize such tendency as missing trust in what can be understood (while instead i&#8217;m blindly relying on my intuitive skills to &#8220;set up the mess&#8221;), and i&#8217;m trying to correct it by all means.<br />
When (if) i will be a professor, i will be very careful while saying someone to &#8220;work hard&#8221;, to avoid people trying to do so by just studying theorems without sufficient awareness (instead of trying to develop it).<br />
I&#8217;m just trying to express my thoughts, and i&#8217;d be happy to listen the advice of more experienced people. Thanks for your post!</p>
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